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Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @02:34AM (#17455612)
There is a fascinating pattern, in aeronautics, whereby the design that works best is almost always inexplicably beautiful. It's as if humans have a broad and innate understanding of aerodynamics, even far past our natural environment. (Contrast that with astrodynamics, where the best design is usually the ugliest.)
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by btrettel on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @07:21AM (#17456547)
> It's as if humans have a broad and innate understanding of aerodynamics, even far past our natural environment.

As a fluid dynamicist, I'd say closer to the opposite is true. The shapes might look good, but ask a person not trained in basic fluid dynamics to explain what makes a particular shape aerodynamic and they'll likely do poorly.

Boundary layer separation phenomena seems to be inherently unintuitive. I can recall talking about aerodynamics with someone very smart but untrained in the field. They seemed focused on the high pressure zone created in front, with no consideration of the size of the low pressure zone in the back. (In a simplified view of the problem.) If the boundary layer separates prematurely, it creates a larger low pressure zone and increases drag. So the shape of the back of an object matters to its drag. There's a reason airfoils are elongated and not just smooth fronts with abrupt ends.

And the intuitive understanding most people have would not suggest that roughening an object could decrease its drag. But this is a well known phenomena explained by boundary layer separation as well.

(Note that I don't know much anything about supersonic aerodynamics and what I say here is only what I know about subsonic aerodynamics. I am not an aerodynamicist, just a guy who works broadly in fluid dynamics.)

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by hymenoptera on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @01:05PM (#17458289)
I think you missed his point.

He didn't claim that our innate appreciation for specific forms might imply that we make good decisions about how to find more.

What he did say was that our degree of appreciation for proven designs, founded in evidence, seems to show that, as animals, we have buttons buried deep within us, that these designs manage to push.

We all seem to like the same thing, once someone finds it or figures it out, even without knowing specifically why. Certain shapes and designs seem to transcend language, education, formal training and analytical judgement.

There are rule sets that seem to appeal to us, instictively, and yet spaceships are not bound by those "rules of instinctive appeal" even though qualitatively, we can't state what those rules are or where they come from.

The mystery, regarding where that post-hoc appeal comes from is what's interesting.

Not that people aren't master draftsman, and materials scientists out of the womb.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by btrettel on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @01:52PM (#17458556)
I disagree. If efficient designs pushed some buttons in your head in a satisfying way, you'd find people absolutely fascinated by things like the Sears-Haack body:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sears%E2%80%93Haack_body

Yet I'm not aware of anyone who is. In fact, the Sears-Haack body is basically a toothpick, which makes it ugly as far as I'm concerned.

There's a simpler explanation for why airplane designs are often beautiful. Ugly designs typically don't sell as well. So designers look for something beautiful and at least reasonably efficient. In this view, there's no particular connection between the beauty of the design and its efficiency.

I know that for car designs, we've known empirically for nearly 100 years how to make a very low drag body shape. And most car shapes on the market are far from optimal. While I've had arguments with people about why the most efficient shapes don't appear on the market (e.g., someone argued they'd have less cargo capacity, which I don't agree with), ultimately, few people want to drive a car that looks like a fish or something else that's strange. I imagine a similar phenomena occurs with planes.

This design is very efficient, but the company folded after about 6 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series

Personally, I don't find the design attractive. And I doubt your average HN reader feels as compelled by the design as they do about the latest Tesla, for example.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by hymen0ptera on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @02:34PM (#17458765)
This continues to invert the premise. The intersection of appealing things and functional things is more interesting that either taken in isolation.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by jessriedel on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @08:45AM (#17456941)
Having an intuitive eye for what's aerodynamic does not mean one is able to explain the physical mechanism behind it.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by btrettel on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @09:10AM (#17457056)
Explanations aside, the phenomena I mentioned go directly against common intuitions. Those intuitions are not as accurate as people think they are.

That aerodynamics is counterintuitive is fairly well accepted among fluid dynamicists. Watch this classic series of videos from MIT:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=j0rQ4F3f-Ic

I have not watched the videos, but I did read the associated book, and it goes into detail about the counterintuitiveness.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by ericst on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @04:36AM (#17456007)
I would say that this is not specific to aeronautics. It works also for other engineering fields. I find there is always an uncanny beauty in simple, elegant and efficient design usually. Be it software, mechanics or electronics. I am sure it goes as well in other disciplines...

Engineering is a form of Art.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by jacobush on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @04:26AM (#17455965)
Given that humans are pretty good swimmers and divers, and even have little webbing between fingers and toes, I'd say we have an innate understanding of fluid dynamics rather than aerodynimcs, with aerodynamics being a special case of fluid dynamics.

I.e. we have an innate ability to identify a good swimmer's body, because we as a species are (potentially) good swimmers.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by tormeh on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @03:21AM (#17455747)
Is there such a thing as astrodynamics? Since there's mostly vacuum in space, can't you have whatever shape you want?
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @03:27AM (#17455765)
> Is there such a thing as astrodynamics?

Yes, it's a hodgepodge of ballistics, orbital and celestial mechanics, and other factors relating to spacecraft navigation.

Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by garmaine on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @03:53AM (#17455841)
Yes, I nearly majored in it. It's basically spacecraft engineering + orbital mechanics and celestial navigation.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by acchow on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @07:25PM (#17459965)
More likely that we are exposed to a lot of aerodynamic animals. And we find them beautiful.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by kaybe on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @08:51AM (#17456960)
ESA engineers have told me: If it looks good it will work well. So they seem to have a lot of experience with this, although their sense of aesthetics might be impacted by their work.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by swerveonem on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @06:04PM (#17459658)
I guess something similar is at play when I think something looks fast, and usually the object is sleek and aerodynamic.
Re:Nasa to test ‘quiet’ supersonic flights over Texas by s2g on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @03:28AM (#17455768)
Or humans have a natural affinity for smooth surfaces and curves. Objects that happen to be aerodynamically efficient.