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Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by mehrdadn on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @05:23AM (#17448680)
How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the time they can get out?

Also, one detail that CNN got that I didn't see in this article: it seems the cave is one kilometer underground! [1]

EDIT 1: The CNN article partially answers my first question: "Rescuers will also pump air into the cave to improve conditions."

EDIT 2: Another important bit here [2]: "It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/in...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-i...

Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by jarvist on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:06AM (#17449175)
There's usually plenty of air underground in a cave. They are actively being weathered / formed by little streams, which drag down air with them, forming a natural circulating draft. So even though the human-sized exit is flooded, there are likely to be multiple small inlets + cracks in the rock. The situation is very different in an (artificial) mine, which often have a single entrance/exit and no flowing water, so the air is totally stationary and quickly becomes stale.

Airbells, which are small air pockets in an otherwise flooded section are relatively unusual, and from the video footage it looked like the football team had climbed up into a larger Fossil gallery overlying the current (active) flooded section. Hopefully this means they will also be well protected from any future more extreme flooding.

These little stream inlets form a source of drinking water. Even when the main cave river is a turbid mess, there's normally plenty of clean little streams coming in - some of which will be fed by percolation water (seeping through rock) and therefore effectively 'mineral' water.

Often when journalists describe caves in the press, 'one kilometer underground' would be better described as 'one kilometer into' the cave. Certainly the cave doesn't look very deep, most river caves form fairly horizontally.

For digging into or exploring from above, what matters much more is how thick the rock is above them (or above a chamber that they can reach), and what it's made out of.

Locating them on the surface (i.e. figuring out where to start digging) will also be a challenge - most caves are not surveyed with a high degree of accuracy, and doing so through a flooded, flowing, low-visibility section is extremely difficult. (One of the rescue divers, John Volanthen, has done some pretty amazing stuff with a water-proof data-logging accelerometer + flux compass in this area - the "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper".) They will probably dive a radio beacon into the cave + then use that to locate the party, combined with a (dry) survey within the cave to figure out the extent of the available space to the survivors.

Radio comms should be setup quite soon - one system which may be of general interest to the Hackernews community is the cave-link: http://www.cavelink.com/cl3x_neu/index.php/en/ It has a lot of automation + resending / checksumming of messages to enable transmission over the very low bandwidth and noisy VLF channel through hundreds of metres of rock.

Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by streety on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:44PM (#17452214)
Do you have a link where I could learn more about that "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper"? I've found several mentions of its use, but would be interested in more technical information.
Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by jdietrich on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:21AM (#17449239)
>How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the time they can get out?

Most cave systems are relatively permeable. Even if you can't see a route out, there are likely to be paths for air movement.

The immediate threat is the accumulation of carbon dioxide rather than a deficit of oxygen. Fresh air is about 0.04% CO2, but most caves have ambient CO2 levels of over 1% and some as high as 6%. You'll start feeling quite unwell above 4%, violently ill above 7% and there's a risk of seizures, unconsciousness and death above 10%. Normal air is about 21% oxygen, you can cope perfectly well on about 16% oxygen and survive on as little as 10% oxygen.

The boys seem alert and in reasonably good spirits, so I'd say that the air in their section of the cave is fairly good.

Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by chiasmic on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @08:27AM (#17449562)
Even if the cave was closed from a gaseous perspective, there is flowing water. Gases dissolve in water, although not necessarily very quickly. Would the flow of water allow for CO2 to be removed from the space given a sufficiently large surface area?
Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by azernik on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @10:05AM (#17450245)
Generally caves have elevated CO2 levels not because of human respiration, but because of outgassing - they're generally eroded out of carbonate minerals, and so the water flowing in carries CO2 inside at higher concentrations than the outside world. The smaller the subsystem the human is isolated in, the faster they perturb that equilibrium toward an even higher CO2 level.

The ESA, of all groups, has a pretty good write-up on this: http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-caves-e... They use cave exploration for astronaut team-building, process/workflow training, and acculturation.

Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by gehwartzen on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @11:22PM (#17455088)
The article's reference to the boys faces being lit by torchlight had me pretty startled (considering the implications of fire in an at least partially sealed cave) until I realized the story was in The Guardian!
Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by unklefolk on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @06:34AM (#17449030)
This article about Harrison Okene whose boat sank is interesting in terms of surviving in an air bubble underwater (and seems somewhat analogous to the cave situation).

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...

Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by mcfunk on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:58PM (#17452331)
The most interesting suggestion I read about this was: > With the rescuers, doctors and other staff likely to enter the cave, rescuers could open scuba tanks to ensure they had all enough oxygen. “It will create air pressure and the carbon dioxide will filter out through the rock,” Wolf said. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/02/thailand-...
Re:British divers make contact with missing Thai football team by onetimemanytime on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @05:51AM (#17448853)
>>"It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."

Me: Just drop me a gun...I'm claustrophobic and I'd rather die once.

Was there a worldwide competition for the worst place to put these kids, or what?