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Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:54AM (#17440896)
> Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages

Even as a whole it's slowing down heavily now, even Android is switching to Kotlin. The language is already not that trendy but Oracle's aggressive lawsuits is making it even worse.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by knightofmars on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:38AM (#17441113)
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:58AM (#17441241)
I did not say that it's still not used heavily, just that it's slowing down. And C is the second on that list so I'm not sure I would believe this ranking, I have not seen much C jobs for a while now.
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by Tomte on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:06AM (#17441724)
That‘s because you‘re only thinking of desktop applications, mobile applications and web stuff.

Embedded software is a vast market, and it‘s mostly C with a rising share of C++.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:10AM (#17441750)
> Embedded software is a vast market

Is it really? IoT still isn't taking off much and the more powerful the machines are getting (so every year), the less people are going to use C for that only tiny segment people are still using it for.

Where I've used C on a microcontroller 10 years ago, you would likely use a cheap Android board nowadays.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by Tomte on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:13AM (#17441781)
Are you kidding me?

Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them?

How many things don‘t you see in your home? Everything in your home that doesn‘t include software has been manufactured and packaged.

My employer makes components for industrial automation. Have you ever thought about it? Nobody does, unless he has direct contact.

Building automation? Special machinery (huge presses or packaging machines). Whatever.

And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:24AM (#17441871)
> Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them?

Not much as much as you think, apart from the routers, computers and phone, the only other thing I can think of is the dishwasher because it's half-recent. And I suspect the new ones just include a cheap Android board.

> And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc.

I've worked on a company which manufactured their own card, that is much harder to do by yourself than buying a board which has been produced at millions of units where they solved all those issues directly. You can't compete with that easily. We had at least 5 iterations to solve the magnetic and heat issues, all of that comes for free in a mass-produced board.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by iainmerrick on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:06PM (#17444016)
Not much as much as you think, apart from the routers, computers and phone, the only other thing I can think of is the dishwasher because it's half-recent. And I suspect the new ones just include a cheap Android board.

I suspect you’re thinking at the wrong level. Your washing machine definitely does have software even if it’s not “recent”. When you press the buttons or turn the dials and it does stuff, even if it doesn’t have pretty graphics on the display, that’s software.

If you have a microwave, that has software, if you have a car that has a ton of software. Your car keys and your credit cards probably have software.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by Tomte on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:27PM (#17444203)
Battery charger. Camera. Camera lenses. TV. Blu-Ray player. HiFi/audio system. Radio. Dimmable lamps (probably). Electric toothbrush. Shaver. Possibly electric kettle. Blender. KitchenAid. Telephone (the wired one). Possibly door opener. Rice cooker. Garage door opener. Coffee machine. Toaster.
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by Tomte on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:33AM (#17441941)
No, it doesn‘t come for free, because it simply fails all those requirements.

A developer board simply doesn‘t care about most of that, and if it does, to a much lower degree.

But we‘re done here, you‘re clearly not discussing in good faith. Stay in your web bubble if you want to.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by dang on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:52AM (#17447870)
You post a lot of great submissions to HN, but if you continue to be uncivil in comments we're going to ban you. This is the second time I've had to warn you in as many days. Not cool!
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:47AM (#17442062)
> But we‘re done here, you‘re clearly not discussing in good faith. Stay in your web bubble if you want to.

Thanks for your well detailed argumentation, that was convincing.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by dang on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:52AM (#17447871)
Please don't respond to a bad comment with another bad comment and thereby make this place even worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Thursday July 05, 2018 @08:56AM (#17462853)
sorry about that
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by knightofmars on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:16AM (#17441335)
"I have not seen much C jobs for a while now."

Because your anecdotal evidence is more accurate than what this list (which describes its methodology) is showing you?

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:32AM (#17441448)
Yeah it is, because their methodology is shitty: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-defi..., they just use the google popularity of "[name] programing", it's not a mesure of anything.

C jobs are very rare, and it's certainly not 14% of the programming jobs. Putting Java and C on the exact same level is a good sign something is wrong with what they are doing.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by Tomte on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:07AM (#17441732)
C jobs are certainly much more than 14%. Believe it or not.

Most software developers don‘t hang out in internet forums, commit to GitHub or write blog posts about JavaScript frameworks. They just do their day job and go home to their family.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by kickopotomus on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:23AM (#17442434)
C jobs are not rare at all. I think you are failing to consider large chunks of the tech sector that operate outside of the web.
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:31AM (#17442501)
> that operate outside of the web.

Outside of the web, mobile, desktop apps and even gaming (mostly C++) you mean? C is used mainly in low level computing and embed nowadays.

Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by kickopotomus on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:37AM (#17442569)
Yes. That is correct. I fail to see your point since that is a large chunk of tech.
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by realusername on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:05PM (#17442814)
I would not use "large" for that, it's certainly a chuck yes but is it comparable to web, mobile, gaming and desktop? I'm not really sure.
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by kickopotomus on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:58PM (#17443941)
It most definitely is large. It's not just about all of the recent IoT devices. Firmware for all of the controllers on your motherboard is written in C. Most device drivers are still written in C. Many operating systems (linux) are written in C. Then you have all of the controllers in the devices in your home (e.g. microwave, oven, digital clock, entertainment devices, etc.)
Re:The Machine That Builds Itself: The Strengths of the Lisp... by knightofmars on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:04PM (#17452375)
Feel free to show me a link to a site with a better methodology to support your claim. Otherwise I'm going to continue believing you lack evidence to support said claim and are therefore wrong.