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Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:47AM (#17425174)
> pegged to USD through known collateral

I'm skeptical of any stable coin. Doubly so when they're pegged to U.S. dollars.

Banks holding U.S. dollars follow American AML rules. Those include requirements around tracing beneficial ownership. Since nobody knows who beneficially owns a stablecoin, there is nobody who can vouch for those dollars' beneficial owners.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:12PM (#17425344)
Eventually they plan to move to a version that is tied to some CPI (basket of goods) rather than one currency.

DAI is really borrowed against collateral (right now it's Ethereum, but there are plans for muliple forms of collateral), and these collateralized debt positions are public info. If the underlying collateral's value falls too far, the position is automatically liquidated and the underlying collateral is sold to pay for the debt before returning the remainder to the borrower.

Those two mechanisms are the only means of DAI creation, which means that it can never get in an undercollateralized position without everyone knowing. Everything about it is transparent, there are no hidden beneficial owners really. Their names may not be known, but all financial positions are known.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by tomjakubowski on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:48PM (#17427755)
> Eventually they plan to move to a version that is tied to some CPI (basket of goods) rather than one currency.

Is the idea that someone will guarantee me some basket of consumer goods (or some amount of another currency which can readily be exchanged for said basket) if I give them 1 DAI?

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:28PM (#17427979)
Not really. It's just a way of measuring value more removed from any one nation's currency. You take the price, in DAI, of a bunch of historically stable priced goods. Bread, tires, shoes, etc. Measure the averaged normalized variance in price over time for these goods in DAI. Then tune the economic incentives to make those variances stay at as close to zero as possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_price_index

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by theptip on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:21PM (#17425951)
I see two distinct types of coin referred to as "stable coin" -- dynamic supply coins like Bancor, and fiat-backed tokens like Tether allegedly is.

I think there are fundamental problems with Schellingcoins / other smart-contract-based coins which try to dynamically adjust the supply to maintain a peg; the underlying economics seems pretty shaky (e.g. see http://hackingdistributed.com/2017/06/19/bancor-is-flawed/).

I don't think that the same problems exist with fiat-backed coins though, IFF the full reserve is held. The problem with pegs is when you don't have enough reserve to prevent the peg being broken.

Tether is supposed to be full backed like this, but the fact that they broke up with their auditor suggests that they are not being honest about their reserves.

Although, if your USD-coin is issued by Bank of America, and they apply the same fractional reserve rules that they do to their normal deposits, is there any difference at all?

There's nothing in principle preventing a blockchain from tying wallets to KYC'd individuals, thus resolving the UBO for a given payment/settlement; Stellar and Ripple both have KYC protocols built in.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by fiter on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:18PM (#17427525)
Fractional reserve refers to the reserve of cash, but it does not refer to the reserve of total assets/liabilities.

If you are implying Tether is backed by total assets/liabilities, then some people might be OK. On the other hand, some people might be concerned if it was backed by cryptocurrencies which are rather volatile. The volatility of the cryptocurrencies could then result in volatility in Tether.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by theptip on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:24PM (#17428318)
Tether claims to be 1:1 backed, i.e. each USDT issued is backed by a USD in their reserve. I don't believe that is actually true in Tether's case, but yes, I was referring to 1USD in reserve per 1USD-stable-token as the viable stable/pegged token case.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by berberous on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:59PM (#17425777)
I don't think you understand Dai. It's pegged to USD, meaning that it tries to be as stable as the USD, but is not actually backed by USD. KYC/AML issues are no different than those that apply to BTC (e.g., if you try to cash out BTC or Dai via a U.S. exchange for USD, you will need to pass U.S. KYC).
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by drcode on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:47PM (#17426160)
This is not true, as far as I understand: The vast majority of DAI is backed by fiat currencies via a complex mechanism involving multiple outside parties. The earliest version of DAI was envisioned as being 100% unbacked, but the collateral requirements to make that feasible ended up being prohibitive.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wegwerfbenutzer on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:41PM (#17426614)
No, currently DAI is backed by Ethereum. You only need to spend one minute on their website or subreddit to get this information. I follow them for a long time and never even heard of them being backed by fiat. They only try to use virtual goods like virtual gold, cryptocurrencies etc. as collateral.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by RexetBlell on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:14PM (#17428984)
Dai is not backed by Ethereum. Dai is backed by Ether.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:51PM (#17429387)
Okay Mr. Pedant. Actually Dai isn't backed by either one. It's backed by an ERC-20 token called Pooled Ether.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by drcode on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:49PM (#17428911)
Virtual gold is not "backed by ethereum" it is backed by gold. These are obviously the third parties I'm talking about.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:41PM (#17426619)
No, you may be thinking of something else. DAI is backed by Ethereum held in a smart contract. It's not collateralized by fiat currencies right now.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by coolspot on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:04PM (#17425265)
The idea behind DAI is that it is over collaterized by Ethereum coins. For example to issue $100 worth of DAI someone has to put $200 worth of Eth into a contract. Then if price falls down significantly issuer has choice of adding collateral to keep collaterization ratio high, or face automated liquidation when Ethereum is sold to cover DAI nomination.

Not sure how significant permanent drop in price would be handled, as I understand it would cause cascade liquidation and massive loss for all parties involved (issuers and holders of DAI).

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by notahacker on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:12PM (#17425350)
It's certainly a better idea than Tether's false accounting, but I'd rather have my dollars undercollateralized by a bank backed by reserve lending and depositor protection schemes than overcollateralized by much riskier assets like ETH.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:23PM (#17425450)
I agree. But eventually they plan to allow for many forms of collateral, and peg the price to a basket of goods. If convenience were the same, I would rather hold an overcollateralized currency with stocks, bonds, gold, ETH, etc. underneath. Such a thing does not exist yet, but I'm excited that it will, if MakerDAO continues to follow through on their plans.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by notahacker on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:59PM (#17425776)
Trouble is, I don't see how smart contracts validate the actual presence of assets like stocks, bonds and gold underneath. There's obviously going to be centralization and trust necessary, in which case I might as well rely on regulated financial intermediaries exchanging real dollars rather than hold a synthetic dollar with the downside counterparty and residual value risk associated with holding derivatives linked to a basket of goods but no upside.

I'm also struggling to understand the incentive for people to overcollateralize to receive tokens notionally equivalent to dollars and how that's convenient

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:55PM (#17426771)
To your first point, the vision is to use other Ethereum tokens tied to various assets and securities. How those asset-backed tokens are set up and how trustworthy they are depends on the individual token. I know there are a few asset-backed tokens (gold, real estate) but I have no knowledge as to how legit they all are.

To your second point, the collateralized loan allows for very very low interest margin investing. You can use the DAI to invest in something, sell it at a higher price, repay your loan, and make money on the difference.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wegwerfbenutzer on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:53PM (#17426744)
DigixDAO works on tokenized gold. If there is demand, we will see every possible good as a token. It shouldn't be that difficult to make an virtual product like an ETF into a token on a blockchain.

There are financial incentives to create and destroy DAI. A user of DAI doesn't need to collateralize, he just buys DAI.

DAI demand will grow, if the use cases grow. It is also a good safe heaven for crypto traders.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:32PM (#17425517)
> the idea behond DAI is that it is over collaterized by Ethereum coins

I love how we've come full circle to uninsured fractional reserve banking.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by AlexSolution on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:44PM (#17425650)
It's actually the reverse of fractional reserve banking. Any Dai that is created must be over-collateralized by 150%. It's not capital efficient, but that's a different argument than what's being discussed.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:50PM (#17425727)
> It's actually the reverse of fractional reserve banking

It's analogous. (More accurately, it's a carry trade.) If Ethereum crashes more than 33% (given 150% overcapitalisation) the token breaks the buck. Betting your less-liquid assets won't fall below your more-liquid liabilities is maturity transformation and presents the classic risks of fractional-reserve banking.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wegwerfbenutzer on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:46PM (#17426663)
There are mechanisms in place for this scenario. Incentives for people to "break the contract" of contracts that come close to undercollaterization.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by woah on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:06PM (#17426317)
This has happened, and AFAIK, DAI is still stable. Maybe that's the result of some extra manipulation by the project or whatever. I would love to see an in depth analysis of DAI over the past 6 months.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rthomas6 on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:44PM (#17426647)
No, it's part of the protocol. When a collateralized position falls below the 150% (or whatever) mark, that position gets automatically liquidated and auctioned off to pay for the debt.

And the positions are set up to where you can borrow less than the maximum amount of DAI per ETH, to make your position more resistant to price drops.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:03PM (#17427859)
> When a collateralized position falls below the 150% (or whatever) mark, that position gets automatically liquidated and auctioned off to pay for the debt

The same thing happens with banks. It turns into a run when this forced liquidation drives prices down further which in turn fuels further redemption requests. It’s very possible to start the day 150% capitalised and end 20% because you sold 10% which tanked the market.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by smokeyj on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:43PM (#17425643)
Parent's example uses a 200% reserve. How is that fractional?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by htormey on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:59AM (#17425231)
Look at TrueUSD. They are a US based company that holds USD in escrow and do this:

https://www.trusttoken.com/trueusd/

I was at a talk by them last week and they talked through the process they used to stay compliant.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 29, 2018 @12:31PM (#17425506)
> US based company that holds USD in escrow

It appears TrueUSD has set up a "legal framework [which] enables you to exchange USD directly with escrow accounts" [1]. When cashing out, you "receive USD from one of the escrow accounts in [their] network of fiduciary and banking partners to purchase or redeem TrueUSD." (You also need to pass "a standard KYC/AML check."

This is much better than Tether. But I'm still skeptical. If a TrueUSD token is frozen as part of a bankruptcy or divorce case, or is involved in criminal proceedings, is the token frozen or the entire escrow account? How do the escrow account managers certify they know the beneficial owners of their escrow accounts? "Know your customer" is a basic American financial principle, and one stable coins of any stripe inherently butt up against.

[1] https://blog.trusttoken.com/trueusd-a-usd-backed-stablecoin-...

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by snissn on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:56AM (#17425213)
have you read about it?