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Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by learner_ on Monday June 25, 2018 @09:47AM (#17392358)
Why do most introductory math textbooks not contain solutions? How can a self-learner without access to a university or professor check their work?

The common answer I get is solutions "rob" the student of learning. Why should the fear of the lazy student cheat those that actually attempt their work and want to see if their solution is correct?

Additionally, I heard the argument that "you should know" if your solutions are correct. A beginner is probably prone to subtle mistakes and may think their reasoning is rational. Thus they are probably unaware of any subtle logic errors and could easily fool themselves into thinking their proofs are correct.

Is it partially laziness from the authors in creating new problems for homeworks/exams? Or do people think a literal beginner in math can be their own proof checker?

I wouldn't want a beginner programmer writing "production ready" code without code review, so why should we expect a beginner math student to write error free proofs? What is the point in not allowing solutions?

As great as these text may be, I couldn't and wouldn't recommend them for the beginner. These text seem to be designed solely for a classroom where students will get assistance and feedback from TAs and professors. They seem useless for a beginner to learn on their own without outside proof checking.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:14AM (#17392565)
> Why do most introductory math textbooks not contain solutions?

I offer a couple of Free texts, one of which is pretty popular (http://joshua.smcvt.edu/linearalgebra/). The answers, completely step-by-step solved, are available. I can give you two reasons.

1) Preparing good questions and giving answers is about half the work. On my page you'll see that the book is 500 pages and the answers are 400 pages.

And it is not the half that is fun, or that gets you credit. I find that compiling the answers greatly increases the quality of the book because I keep going back and adjusting the presentation, etc. But others don't think that. Rather the opposite; I have been told that it is work only appropriate for grad students.

2) I have gotten a fair number of emails along the lines of "I'd like to adopt your book but since anyone can download the answers, I cannot teach out of it."

It has not in the past proven to be a fruitful strategy for me to inform the email writer that the first thing any 2018 undergrad does on getting a text asignment is to google for the answers pdf, and that those students always succeed.

So one reason to not provide answers is to get more adoptions. This ties in with (1) because my five year reviews are not impressed that random self-learners find the text useful. They ask about adoptions.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by _zax2 on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:13AM (#17393019)
Disclaimer: I have studied linear algebra with your book. Thank you for writing it. Special thanks for making it completely free and open-source.

I have gotten a fair number of emails along the lines of "I'd like to adopt your book but since anyone can download the answers, I cannot teach out of it."

When we had an introductory course in linear algebra, we were not given any home assignments. Instead, we were told that if we want to train and exercise some concepts, we should find third-party materials and self-study -- and so, I used your book. I really like that approach, it allows more capable students to do whatever they like instead, and to less capable -- work on it, if needed. Thus, I don't understand the rationale of not teaching out of something that contains solved exercises, because there is no reason to assign mandatory exercises in the first place. It's enough to have tests.

And of course, such books are extremely valuable for non-mainstream (that is, not enrolled into a high school or wherever) audience, which can be smaller, but has more impact regarding feedback.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by bytematic on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:33PM (#17393685)
Not all resources are of similar quality and profs aren't going to let the students judge that for themselves. I imagine a prof wants questions that specifically walk students through what they are teaching.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by chris_mc on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:14AM (#17393034)
>I have been told that it is work only appropriate for grad students.

It's quite common to look down on "lesser" work like this (janitorial work, writing solutions, whaterver) as only useful for those "lower" than you, but the amount of times I asked for help from a professor only to have them struggle to comprehend how to solve the problem (from their own assignment) was too damn high. Maybe if they tried to eat their own dog food, they'd see where they could improve.

>They ask about adoptions.

Of course, because the metrics we used to use to get a gauge of where we were progressing and where we needed work turned directly into a measure of our worth as a laborer. Your worth as a professor is only proportional to how much good PR you bring to your organization, they don't care about you actually teaching students, especially not students who aren't paying for your services via your university tuition.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by learner_ on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:32AM (#17392691)
Thank you for writing this book and providing it as a free resource for the audience that I have in mind. I downloaded your book and plan to work through it in its entirety. Coincidentally I am studying linear algebra, so this is a perfect resource for me. The coverage of your material looks very good, so I am excited to work through it.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by dvfjsdhgfv on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:22AM (#17392621)
I have admit it's one of the nicest math books laid out in LaTeX, it's a pleasure read.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:26AM (#17392657)
That's kind of you; thank you.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by mindcrime on Monday June 25, 2018 @02:35PM (#17394589)
Thank you very much for creating your books and making them freely available. You are truly "doing God's work" (so to speak).
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by meuk on Wednesday June 27, 2018 @05:30PM (#17412005)
Though I have only skimmed through the textbook, it looks very well written. I admire the effort you have put into it, and that you have made it available for free. The same thing holds for the text on number theory (although it looks like you have put even more effort in the linear algebra text - not only due to the fancy typesetting).

How much time did you put into writing? I have been wishing to write something similar (that is, math texts about linear algebra, analysis, number theory, etc.) for a long time, although I can only hope it to be of this quality. Do you have any tips for an aspiring math textbook writer? I have a graduate degree in math, but I unfortunately I don't use math in my day job, so I am afraid that the material I produce will be too low in quality to be useful for people...

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Thursday June 28, 2018 @09:20PM (#17421733)
I'm sorry but I missed your question earlier. I am currently working on a Theory of Computation text. I have about two years in, and anticipate at least one more, probably two. (I need to write some Scheme and I am rusty.)
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by meuk on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:43AM (#17423698)
No worries, I just posted this yesterday! ;) I know how busy professors can be, so I wasn't really expecting a reply (at least anytime soon).

But wow, that is a pretty deep investment! I was expecting a little less, but I guess it makes sense since writing is not your full-time occupation.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:31AM (#17430975)
I work at a small liberal arts college, St Michael's College in Vermont. I have a much greater expectation of teaching effort than professors at research institutions would have, although here there is also an expectation of professional activity. So the writing is not anything like full-time. But it is a creative outlet, which is great.

> I have a graduate degree in math, but I unfortunately I don't use math in my day job, so I am afraid that the material I produce will be too low in quality to be useful for people...

It is good to have feedback from real people. I work through material with my students in classes, and sometimes I've had what I thought was a great approach and it would just not work in practice.

I don't know if there are online groups of people working on writng stuff like this, either at the college level or at high school or earlier levels, but if you could find such a group, it'd be good to get in with them. (And tell me. :-) )

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by lainga on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:19AM (#17393065)
Have you considered taking up the textbook model of providing answers to only a subset of the questions?
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:49AM (#17393327)
When I first provided the book (?96), with it I provided for free download the answers to about half of the questions. The web page said something like, "If you are an instructor then write me and I'll give you access to the rest." But just how foolish that was quickly became apparent: telling who is acutally an instructor or someone learning on their own, and not someone just saying that, was not something that I could do.

Publishers reps seem to me to rely on paper mail, and an address like "Math Dept, St Michael's College" does provide some kind of proof. But I sometimes get emails like "I am a student in a poor country and the only way ..." and I simply am not saying no to that.

That last sentence also answers why I don't erase half of the answers.

Free texts are a different model and there are a lot of kinks.

The folks who wrote the book this thread is based on have done something great. (I teach Discrete and I had a look to see if I could use it.) But including answers is a problem to which I am unaware of a solution. Or maybe, it is just that expectations have to change.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by a1369209993 on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:46PM (#17395223)
The obvious solution would be to not provide access to the even-numbered answers to anyone. Students in poor countries would presumably be able to study with just the odd numbered questions (after all, university students are expected to do so). Requests from instructors could be answered with "If you can't solve these problems yourself, you have no business assigning them as homework.", or, if you're feeling particularly Kafkaesque, assume the're all actually students and congratulate them on having a particularly convincing return address, but no, you're still not going to help them cheat.

This does call for a rather more misanthropic attitude than you seem to have, though.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:27PM (#17395516)
Last summer, around the time my mom passed, someone who teaches out of my book sent me a picture of her class. Just by coincidence this was near to where my mom and dad grew up in the 1940's. It was a room of bright people, all kinds of shades, who wanted the American dream and were working through Linear Algebra on their way up there.

So no, I'm not doing that. :-)

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by learner_ on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:44PM (#17395649)
Please continue to stay steadfast in your approach in teaching mathematics and providing solutions. I bought your book, and love the fact you provide it freely online for all to use. Your approach addressed all of the concerns I had in my initial post and I see your book maintains mathematical rigor. This is honestly a breathe of fresh air. Thank you again. You are truly serving the ones that want to learn.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by patrec on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:41PM (#17395170)
Maybe your problem is just being overly consistent? Wouldn't just making half the answers officially available, but not troubling yourself overly over whether you can validate that someone really is an instructor allow you to you to have your cake and eat it too? As you point out, the profs who think they can't teach out of a book with officially available answers are probably deluded anyway, and the answers not being "officially" available might be enough to satisfy them (and thus for you to reap the academic reward for your effort you deserve). A text book with available answers is a so much greater public good, it's disheartening to see you penalized for it.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by sondr3 on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:30AM (#17392678)
As the other commenter mentioned, it's beautifully typeset, do you have any hints for someone who writes a fair bit of math in LaTeX?
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jimhefferon on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:51AM (#17392841)
I think of it as very generic LaTeX. I use the AMS math styles for formatting the equations. The fonts are not the standard ones, but they were chosen for xerox-ability rather than some aesthetic (which I don't have). Other than that it is straightforward. (The LaTeX is at https://gitlab.com/jim.hefferon/linear-algebra .)
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by jacobolus on Monday June 25, 2018 @05:54PM (#17396150)
AMS Euler should be much more widely used. It’s great.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMS_Euler

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by w8rbt on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:11PM (#17395394)
Algorithm books are the same way. No solutions. They ought to have a question section for professors to test and a separate question section for students to practice. It doesn't have to be one size fits all.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by chalmette on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:04AM (#17392489)
> The common answer I get is solutions "rob" the student of learning.

If you study math for some time, you'll realize that people in math community (especially students) like to repeat math related cliches (not necessarily true) over and over again. This is that sort of folk lore.

If I were to guess the whys of not including the solutions, I'd say it is to save space as detailed answers to even half the exercises take up considerable space; also "laziness" because writing detailed, explanatory answers is no different from writing the rest of the book. Who wants to do double the work ? :

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by Francute on Monday June 25, 2018 @07:31PM (#17396718)
> How can a self-learner without access to a university or professor check their work?

Their "work" means: Find a solution, AND then check it. So, not checking it by yourself is being lazy too.

Also, if you are learning; software like wolframalpha can help you too to check your solution. [Thanks, throwawaymath for recall this basic answer].

> I wouldn't want a beginner programmer writing "production ready" code without code review, so why should we expect a beginner math student to write error free proofs?

"Code Reviews" are for checking "how did the programmer solved that problem". On the other side; you know if some code is giving good or bad outputs by checking it with "Tests" (In the worst scenario; manually). So, you have to learn to "test" your solution. The creativity is in how you managed to get the solution and teachers should give insights about your way to solve it and present you easier or better ways to achieve the same. (Just change "teachers" for "senior devs" and now, that is code review).

> These text seem to be designed solely for a classroom where students will get assistance and feedback from TAs and professors.

Probably that's true. You have to consider those types of books as "slides"; just like a guide for the teacher and memory refresh for students.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by semigroupoid on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:16AM (#17392574)
One reason might be that exercises that ask for proofs often have several correct answers. It would probably be just as confusing to a beginning student to come up with a proof for some exercise and then see the author take a completely different approach in the provided solution. The student still wouldn't know whether his proof is correct or not.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by hinkley on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:28PM (#17394096)
Because the books aren't for self-taught people.

They're to sell a crapload of books indirectly through University professors.

As for the "you should know" angle, I do believe that a lot of problems chosen for math classes are chosen because they are asymmetric. That is, getting the answer is much harder than checking the answer. For fractions or systems of equations you absolutely can check your work. It's frustrating for me that nobody appears to be teaching kids that.

If you want to get an A on a college level math test your best use of time left over at the end of the test is to check your work.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by hackermailman on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:49PM (#17397547)
Author of this other math book explains why he didn't include solutions, to promote inquiry based learning, with links to research papers from a grad class on evidence based teaching https://infinitedescent.xyz/20180214-exercises-ibl/

"people learn more when they discover something for themselves than they do if someone tells them about it."

The whole idea of IBL is apparently just even communicating properly what problem you're having is a better learning experience than looking at an answer. As an anecdote a few times when I've asked math.stackexchange I found the answer just by thinking about my question.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by ghc35365 on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:10AM (#17392537)
Just wanted to add MIT notes on discrete mathematics have the solution manual.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by globuous on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:46PM (#17395226)
You're completely right. Although ome have solutions book.

For math specifically, they all state theorems and prove them. It's good practice to try to prove a stated theorems without looking at its proof first.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by coliveira on Monday June 25, 2018 @02:09PM (#17394400)
Because books with solutions give a false sense of security. The goal of exercises is to have the students to think for themselves about the solution. It really doesn't matter if they can solve the problem perfectly. People concerned about solutions are in fact thinking about a quick way to get the best grades for an exam. Which is fine, but it should not the first goal of anyone writing a text book on a mathematical topic.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by smadge on Monday June 25, 2018 @05:34PM (#17396016)
Most math textbooks are full of proofs of theorems and examples solving problems. This is not better than direct feedback from an expert on your own proofs (e.g. a tutor, professor, or TA), but it is in my opinion exactly what you are talking about. Students should read the proofs and the examples, and try it themselves until they really understand it. Then the exercises usually fall into place.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by eastWestMath on Monday June 25, 2018 @09:33PM (#17397262)
Well yeah, you need to be pretty far along in your mathematical education before you can learn proof based mathematics on your own. One thing I notice when marking undergraduate work is I can tell they mean the right thing, but what they actually wrote is absolutely wrong. A self learner, even armed with a solution manual, will not fix those mistakes.
Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by throwawaymath on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:43AM (#17393264)
I hear you on how frustrating that is. There are several reasons they don't contain solutions. The reasons you have heard are idealistic but practically incorrect. In particular this is wrong, for the reasons you intuited:

> Additionally, I heard the argument that "you should know" if your solutions are correct.

Anyone who believes this has forgotten their own early struggles or never watched beginning students struggle with something comparatively basic, like induction. In fact, introductory (proof-based) math courses are particularly dangerous for not knowing whether or not your proof is sound, because you've not yet built the mathematical maturity to check your own work. In a similar vein, beginning students often have a high level mental model of why a statement is true and which "tools" are needed, but no idea how to concretely put these together in a sound proof.

This is more of an opinion that doesn't reflect reality:

> The common answer I get is solutions "rob" the student of learning.

If the presence of the solution means the student will simply refer to it instead of e.g. completing homework on their own, then the student was probably never really engaged with the material in the first place. It's one thing to laboriously complete the proof first and then use the solution to check it, but it's another thing entirely if the student is just skipping all the work. This is especially true nowadays, because students who want to get easy answers can just go on math.stackexchange for virtually any homework assignment.

These answers are parroted because there is a deep seated "trial by fire" culture in advanced math. But this doesn't have anything to do with why the solutions don't tend to be in the books. To begin with, you have to check your assumptions:

> How can a self-learner without access to a university or professor check their work?

These textbooks are (for better or worse) not designed to be used by self-learners. In fact there isn't really any mainstream publication effort in higher mathematics targeting autodidacts. Therefore that criticism - while valid - isn't really applicable to math textbooks. Ostensibly students are using these textbooks under the instruction of a professional mathematician in a classroom setting.

The other reason mostly follows from the first one. The proof of any given statement is typically significantly longer than the statement itself. As it stands, math textbooks are usually filled with sequences of axioms, definitions, propositions, theorems and lemmas. Each chapter tends to have at least six or so of those sequences, but potentially dozens. The proofs of theorems are included, which means that all but the most trivial of chapter exercises would significantly lengthen the entire enterprise. That's a lot more writing, grammatical editing, mathematical proof-reading, page binding, etc for the whole publication process.

Re:Notes on Discrete Mathematics (2017) [pdf] by mlevental on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:56PM (#17393851)
are you complaining about this book or books like this in general? this book has solutions to all "assignments" and sample exams...?