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Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by throwaway43532 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @01:44PM (#17382364)
Despite the many issues, I'd still suggest anyone interested in the Aztec empire at the time of the Spanish conquest to read The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Díaz del Castillo. Díaz was present not only on the Cortés expedition, but on the earlier expeditions led by Córdoba and Grijalva.

The article mentions, plausibly so, that the issue of human sacrifice was often exaggerated by the Spaniards. Nevertheless, it is clear that the practice (and self-mutilation, primarily of the ears) was an important aspect of not just Aztec life, but many of their neighbors' as well.

Díaz writes, "I have spent a long time talking about the great cue of Tlatelcoco and its courts. I will conclude by saying that it was the biggest temple in Mexico, though there were many other fine ones, for every four or five parishes or districts supported a shrine with idols; and since there were many districts I cannot keep a count of them all. [...] Every province had its own idols, and those of one province or city were no help in another. Therefore they had infinite numbers of idols and sacrificed to them all."

Discussion of deities and their numbers aside, Díaz' repeated report is that sacrifices of various sorts were widespread, and that evidence of human sacrifice, or the holding of prisoners intended for sacrifice, was found almost universally from the coast to Mexico.

Edit: Reading again, on the subject of tzompantli, or a similar arrangement for sacrificed remains, Díaz writes, "They strike open the...chest with flint knives and hastily tear out the still palpitating heart which, with the blood, they present to the idols in whose name they have performed the sacrifice. Then they cut off the arms, thighs, and head, eating the arms and thighs at their ceremonial banquets. The head they hang up on a beam, and the body of the sacrificed man is not eaten but given to the beasts of prey."

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by partycoder on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:41PM (#17382700)
The Spanish themselves conducted many religion-motivated rituals of human sacrifice in Europe and in the Americas.

In Europe, there was the Inquisition, with ritualistic torture using medieval torture devices, burning people to death, etc. Motivated by religious beliefs, just like the ones in the Americas.

The Spanish also conducted campaigns of extermination. Some recent ones: the Reconcentrado policy in Cuba, and the usage of chemical weapons in the Rif war.

Just an example: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/1898/reconcentrado-2.jpg <- Spain, a Western country, did this

Going back to your post: maybe their portrayal is accurate, but Spain was not any better.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by elteto on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:36PM (#17383308)
“La Reconcentración” was a policy enabled by Gen. Weyler to force people in rural areas to move to nearby cities where they could be monitored, hoping to cut off the underground support network of the rebel Cuban forces fighting in the mountains. It had nothing to do with human sacrifices.
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by spanxx on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:26PM (#17383271)
Do you really think that human sacrifices were so common in Spain? Have you any impartial sources (not Black Legend backed) to defend your arguments?
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by lord_ring_11 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @08:39PM (#17384301)
Didnt church burn people in the name of heresy to conserve their power. It included much celebrated joan of arc in france.
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by patrickg_zill on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#17382815)
This is whataboutism, I think.
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by toadworrier on Sunday June 24, 2018 @06:09AM (#17385867)
I expect so. But there is still an interesting point: witch and heretic-burning likely tap into much the same psychology as ancient human sacrifice. Even the rationales overlap:

"Devine will demands these deaths; we will ensure the safety of our community by ritually killing these people."

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by watwut on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:22PM (#17382904)
Then again, it makes sense to put things into historical perspective. When we are about to talk about how one group was murderous and cruel, and how odd it makes us feel, it makes sense to point out what was going on elsewhere. Especially when the exact group reporting on those things is involved in cruelties of their own and uses these reports to excuse their own cruelties.

Cortez him self was quite cruel, fond of torture - either when looking for gold or enemies.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by austinheap on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:50PM (#17383072)
People can’t stay on topic these days. More interested in being Internet arm charm historians what-about-ing every topic possible.

It’s just an article about Aztecs.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by watwut on Sunday June 24, 2018 @01:54AM (#17385156)
People up thread discuss how good guy Cortez must have been, merely affected by Aztek sacrifices and saving locals. That is somehow on topic? Why the difference?

It is as if people were emotionally invested into this, despite this being hundred years old affair.

So yes, this matters because thread up there want to make adventure book out of this. It is not about trying to figure history, it is about treating it all as scary book.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by int_19h on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:45AM (#17385322)
People up thread merely noted that Cortez was likely correct, and we shouldn't have so hastily disbelieved his claims. They said nothing about him being a "good guy" etc.
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by watwut on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:59AM (#17385514)
His claims were not hastily disbelieved. That is not how history happened there, they were both taken as total truth and disbelieved. His claims were disbelieve for various reasons, notably that he extracted quite a few admissions under severe torture. Notably, disbelieved also by his contemporaries who watched it and wrote horrified reports. He tortured also because gold seeking, not just for human sacrifice cause. They became paranoid and over drunk with unlimited power. When people in group X kill each other and then you kill them all, you was unlikely to be merely horrified and trying to help victims. Your motivations are guaranteed to he more complicated, as much as believe in your good intentions make us feel good.

You can have human sacrifice without it being impossibly large and without it being treated like adventure movie plot and without jumping on every fantasy anyone ever wrote - which is what up thread is. You can belive scientific consensus which is based on multiple sources and findings without making feel good stuff about conquest.

And while you are expressing outrage over exceptional kills, it is fine to ask who the source is. Because it does put things into context as it turns out the report is not by independent third party, but by highly motivated player in political and violent struggle for control.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by golergka on Sunday June 24, 2018 @05:04AM (#17385695)
It seems that you're more concerned with giving value judgements to Aztecs and Spanish, and their comparison – but why is it relevant, or even interesting, at all? Just like in a case where article's author took to Twitter to announce that "human sacrifice wasn't horrific" (which it of course was), I just don't understand why people can't discuss history without fixating on moral value judgements. Do you have a horse in this race, or something?
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by watwut on Sunday June 24, 2018 @06:52AM (#17385990)
It seems to me other way round. I did not judged either, but I wrote why certain reports could not be trusted. The "this particular thing is likely exaggerated" comments were downvoted at the time I read it - regard less of how factual they were and no they did not claimed Azteks not have human sacrifice at all.

That is discussing history without judgement. If you bring this as proof that Cortez was unfairly disbelieved, which people do, then it is absolutely relevant to bring why, the way he collected evidence and what his goals were. That is part of historical discussion too.

This whole discussion, meaning other (top) threads are primary about making civilization judgement. Except that, only Aztek (or communist for some odd reason) kills are allowed in that discussion. It is literally there, Europeans coming were clearly superior, because we don't talk about facts that break that nice vision - namely that potential victims of sacrifice ended up being tortured in order to extract evidence that they themselves killed people (or have gold).

So no, discussion turned into civilization moral judgement before me and at that point it is perfectly ok to discuss involved civilizations - or at least what they were doing at that time at that place.

-----------

Offtopic: I think you can actually judge past people. You can judge Aztek priest, who is in it in part for own gain or cruel Samurai, Nazi leader or Colombus or whoever specifically. You should not however buy one of these guys woldview, just because he is our tribe remotely, and claim his self serving violence and treatment of commoners are fair due to somebody else's action.

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by reitanqild on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:20PM (#17383767)
> In Europe, there was the Inquisition, with ritualistic torture using medieval torture devices, burning people to death, etc. Motivated by religious beliefs, just like the ones in the Americas.

Later, during the reign of terror they killed and tortured people based on non-religious or even anti religious beliefs.

Yes, old Catholics did much wrong but can we stop this very unnuanced "religious people did it" and conclude "people with power did it"?

Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by lostlogin on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:12AM (#17385393)
Apply that to the modern Catholic Church and it’s behaviour. I don’t you can claim it’s just related power, the institution is rotten.
Re:Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrific... by reitanqild on Sunday June 24, 2018 @01:20PM (#17387326)
Care to explain? No big fan ofthe Catholic Church, - they've been after people like me as well, -but my point is:

So has everyone else, so singling out them and pretending it is about "religion" or "the Catholics" is wrong.