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Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by lucideer on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:29AM (#17365449)
If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points.

As to the actual detail of the author's proposed rewordings:

> I'm not talking about the changes themselves - I can live with them. But the _rationale_ is pure and utter garbage, and dangerously so.

becomes

> These changes look OK, but I'm not sure about the rationale.

This rewording imparts an entirely different message to the original. If I read the latter, as a programmer, I would get the impression that Linus thought the commit was "OK". He clearly did not. At no point in his email does he indicate that anything is "OK" about this commit in any way.

> The caps in "AND STANDARD" is another way to indicate frustration [...] None of these carry any meaning about the technical problem; they're just expressions of anger. [...] Most critically, it's possible to describe the danger of this code without

It's important to point out that the author says "it's possible to describe the danger of this code without". He's describing danger but his rewording removes all emphasis, urgency or import in the tone of the email.

> If you were in the "I'm afraid that being nicer would hurt Linux" group, do you think that this email is worse?

Yes.

I'm sorry, but while the argument that Linus makes excessive use of ad hominem and is disrespectul is a valid one, and he could/should temper that, this example is a failure to demonstrate how it would improve things. The final email draft in the blog post is milquetoast; I would forget it within minutes if I were on that list.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by strken on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:18PM (#17370784)
There's something weird going on with Linus vs the polite people, where Linus is far too rude, but his critics are asking him to adopt a conversational style with a dangerous amount of hedging and uncertainty that would be catastrophically bad for the kernel.

Consider These changes look OK, but the rationale is dangerously wrong. It doesn't require Linus to pretend he's "not sure" about a rationale that he obviously thinks is both wrong and dangerous, but it's less personally insulting, shorter, and more on topic.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by GW150914 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:31PM (#17367994)
It occurs to me that these rants of Linus’ would get him banned on this site. It also occurs to me that it only works because people give him a wide bearth, because otherwise it’s just people “screaming” at each other, the very thing that the rules of this site seek to avoid. The notion that emphasis, memorability, and clarity can only be achieved by acting like a child having a tantrum runs contrary to the platform on which this discussion is being had.

I don’t know if that matters, but it strikes me as odd that people who seem to appreciate how this site works think that Linus is some exception because of just how mission critical he is. I also think it likely reflects the lack of soft skills some here have that they can’t imagine a better way being as or more effective, despite the living example of HN itself.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by davidkuhta on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:46AM (#17365628)
Agreed, The author in summary states:

> It [the rewrite] has 43% as many words, but loses none of the meaning. It's still forceful and unambiguous.

Yet, I found the rewrite to be feeble and ambivalent.

> If you were in the "I'm afraid that being nicer would hurt Linux" group, do you think that this email is worse? Yes.

I wanted to add one additional question. Are there environments where ad hominem and disrespect are actually important cultivators of competency and reverence for the nature of the underlying task. Might there be instances where the collective is better off with Mr. Torvalds than Mr. Rogers?

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by UncleMeat on Thursday June 21, 2018 @12:22PM (#17366530)
People have done science to answer your last question. In general the answer is no.
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by davidkuhta on Thursday June 21, 2018 @01:26PM (#17367272)
Do you have any references? I'd be interested to read them.
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by hitekker on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:07AM (#17371486)
I took note of the “Mr torvalds or Mr Rogers” example. It was clever and I think the truth underlying it is that for an idea to survive its circumstances, it must be shepherded by certain kinds of personalities.
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by davidkuhta on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:42PM (#17383334)
Exactly.

I'll add, you accurately used the word shepherded and I thought, "I imagine there are times when sheep aren't too pleased to be handled by a crook". Maybe the Kernel Mailing List is Linus's crook...

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by hyperpape on Thursday June 21, 2018 @08:07PM (#17370219)
Debatable. Linus’s original email is unclear. “I can live with them” is badly ambiguous between:

1. Bad, but I won’t swear at you.

2. I’m not sure what I think, might be ok but needs more discussion

3. Merge them, but I want to swear about the proposed reason, because it’s bad.

I think 3 is the least likely, but nothing in the email unambiguously rules it out. I think 2 is the most likely interpretation.

There’s something funny about people saying “Linus’s style is valuable because he makes things clear” in response to a post where we can’t agree on what he meant.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by ivraatiems on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:05PM (#17367712)
> I'm sorry, but while the argument that Linus makes excessive use of ad hominem and is disrespectul is a valid one, and he could/should temper that, this example is a failure to demonstrate how it would improve things. The final email draft in the blog post is milquetoast; I would forget it within minutes if I were on that list.

You'd really forget an email from the head of the project (the "CEO," to use another user's example on here) telling you you've messed up, just because the language was neutral?

I'm not sure I understand that. I don't think most people need yelling and raving in order to know something is important or understand what needs to get done.

Even so, I'm sure better versions exist. Do you have an idea of a polite-but-forceful rewrite of this email that'd be more effective?

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by pmiller2 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:41AM (#17365574)
Ok, so, maybe the revised email should be more forceful and say “this is a bad idea.” I have no problem with being told what I’m proposing is a bad idea.

As to the supposed “danger,” I think the author may be reading into it too much. Linus himself says he could “live with” the changes. That, to me, does not sound in any way dangerous. What he has a problem with is the reasoning behind why these changes should be made. “This is a bad idea” covers that.

Quibbling over wording doesn’t change the fact that he can effectively get the point across in half the words without insulting anyone or going off on a rant.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by yitchelle on Thursday June 21, 2018 @03:11PM (#17368366)
> If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points.

It is actually a positive rather than negative if author was not motivated to write his blog post by the Linus rant/abuse. It would have meant the Linus was able to get the message across with his abrasive style.

Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by tomatotomato37 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:04PM (#17367705)
I agree. The revised email is respectful and courteous, but it is also woefully forgetful. While you shouldn't do it all the time, there are times when you just really need to drive a point home
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by ivraatiems on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:05PM (#17367720)
Why do you have to insult people on a personal level to drive points home?
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by tomatotomato37 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:23PM (#17367922)
You don't, and I do agree the personal callout was pretty fresh, especially on a public mailing list. It doesn't dismiss the point though that you have to write everything like a HoA letter complaining about the color of your mailbox
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by ng12 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @03:51PM (#17368686)
Right. Linus and the author are both wrong. You can be forceful and direct with your language -- you just probably shouldn't be using ad hominem insults.
Re:A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source by hitekker on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:46AM (#17365625)
The author sounds like someone raised their voice at him once, and he swore he would never ever forgive the world for that insult.

Politically unconscious and otherwise inarticulate.