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Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by omarforgotpwd on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:08PM (#17343268)
Everyone's reaction to this seems to be "He is crazy / paranoid". He gave very specific examples of things this person did. If you were someone with a large position against Telsa, or a competing manufacturer, or an oil / gas company finally picking things up after a terrible oil price collapse, yeah maybe it makes sense to go mess things up subtly enough that the company slips a little bit closer to bankruptcy? I'm not saying I 100% believe this theory, but when you're working at this level as CEO I feel like you have to at least consider the possibility.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by twayalways on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:08AM (#17345810)
>Everyone's reaction to this seems to be "He is crazy / paranoid".

He also investigated "sabotage" when a SpaceX rocket exploded in 2016.

>or a competing manufacturer, or an oil / gas company finally picking things up after a terrible oil price collapse

This is borderline ridiculous. Are you really convinced that Tesla is on the verge of upending the entire energy world? That any minute now they are going to put Big Oil out of business? Companies like Exxon and BP are doing far more R&D into renewables than Tesla is. They aren't even thinking about Tesla. Other auto manufacturers are spending more on R&D and working hard to get cars out. They are behind, but they are succeeding.

Outside of the coastal elites or tech junkies, Tesla is practically unknown and is a rounding error to competitors. The data shows they aren't "growing like gangbusters". Model S/X are stagnating, SolarCity is installing far less per quarter (and essentially laid everyone off recently). Read the financials.

There are tons of competitors in both renewables and cars, but they all decided to pick on Tesla, did they?

>but when you're working at this level as CEO I feel like you have to at least consider the possibility.

So you say it in an email and leak it to the press before any investigation is done?

I called this a long time ago, on these forums: if/when Tesla blows up, everyone is going to point to some conspiracy, rather than lack of execution. Silicon Valley has completely lost touch with reality.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by magnetic on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:50AM (#17347773)
> Outside of the coastal elites or tech junkies, Tesla is practically unknown and is a rounding error to competitors.

Tesla outsells BMW, Audi and Mercedes' flagships in their home market - https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-outsells-bmw-audi-m...

Tesla Model 3 Outsells BMW, Mercedes Equivalents in California - The Model 3 is the best selling mid-size premium sedan sold in California in the first quarter. - https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/tesla-outsold-bmw...

It seems it would be healthy for competitors to take note of this "rounding error"...

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by dsabanin on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:10PM (#17352264)
And, of course, BMW and Mercedes are simply incapable of competing with Tesla on quality engineering and streamlined manufacturing processes, so the only option they have left is sabotage.

It is very hard to connect electric motors to laptop battery packs and to replace the dashboard with an android tablet.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by cepth on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:20AM (#17353278)
Wouldn’t you say this is a little glib?

Nissan’s LEAF famously struggled with battery degradation over time.

You can shade Tesla’s execution/financial performance/etc., but the battery technology improvements they’ve made are real. They’re going to be the first battery manufacturer to deliver costs of lower than $100/kWh, not to mention effectively doubling global production of lithium ion batteries.

A BMW is my most driven car, and I’ve test driven the i3, but it’s quite glib to suggest that BMW and Mercedes could come out with an electric car at any point in time. Tesla’s batteries have degradation performance like this: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-batteries-last-long.... BMW only offers a warranty on the i3 battery to 80% capacity after 100k miles.

One last thing: clean infotainment software is not a given. BMW iDrive was terrible until 2016. The Mercedes interface is still ugly. Neither maker has touchscreens standard.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by dsabanin on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:21PM (#17375679)
I agree that was glib, but some of the statements made by Tesla fans (speaking as a former somewhat Tesla fan myself) are just asking for it. — I don't want to dismiss Tesla, they did achieve a lot. However, it would be a mistake to think that there's some technological breakthrough that they possess that makes them unbeatable or even the most likely winner in the upcoming electric car competition.

Among the reasons why, I would say there are many — engineering culture (and part of that is quality control and standards), haphazard management, brain leak (because of the competition poaching employees, unclear financials, and the management), financials (not making a profit and burning through money like crazy), dismissive approach to the competition and other company's engineering efforts and solutions (stupid robots everywhere, autopilot with the freaking webcams, when everyone said it's a bad idea).

I think the reason why we see that BMW, Mercedes, Audi and others are not building the electric cars with the same favorable characteristics as Tesla, and without similar fanfare, is because they have a bottom line that they'd like to stay in the black.

They have to know that electric car market is a very small niche right now, and they are letting Tesla to be the one who makes customers intrigued and creates some pressure for bringing up at least a little bit of infrastructure for the charging.

Imagine the daily commute in the big city, how many cars are driving through the main city artery? How many cars are pumping gas in any given 30 minutes? How many supercharger stations are needed to accommodate for this? I think you can create a societal collapse right now if 5% of the drives in US would switch to electric cars. People wouldn't find a place to charge their car, electric grid would become unstable and overloaded from all these people who hooked up Tesla to their 200 amp residential fuse box, while having dishwasher, washing maching, drier, TVs, computers and a ton of lights running. For fun, you can also imagine superchargers with enormous lines, with people reserving spots and selling them to those who are in a rush.

I'm sure that the blunt of BMW's and alikes engineering resources are spent right now in different areas, because they just can't afford building this perfect electric car which only 1% of their customers would want to buy. That's how you get bankrupt. Remember Apple Newton?

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by cepth on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:13PM (#17383969)
It could certainly be that the German automakers are more concerned about present profitability. That could easily turn into falling victim to the classic innovator's dilemma. It seems that by year end, both the Model S and Model 3 will have taken significant market share from their European competitors: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te.... The cannibalization is real, and that's why luxury automakers like BMW have announced plans for 12 fully-electric models by 2025 (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/news/industry-ne...).

Your points about electrical infrastructure are definitely thought-provoking ones. I'd agree that the infrastructure as of today doesn't exist for widespread adoption. At the same time, the market that Tesla and the luxury European automakers compete for today doesn't hit that 5% threshold (http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#aut...). Add up the market share of car (not truck) sales from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, and you're looking at a ~3% market share.

I think this section of the video from Sandy Munro is worth a watch: https://youtu.be/CpCrkO1x-Qo?t=1730. Munro has been a huge critic of the build quality of the Model 3, but that everything "below the skateboard [the floor]" is seriously impressive. The cells in Tesla's battery pack have a maximum of a 0.2 milliamp difference between cells.

Say that I accept your premise that the German automakers today are biding their time, and could spend their R&D money on electric cars if they so chose. Who will they source their battery packs from? Will they try to build their own supply chain for the raw materials? What competence have they demonstrated in creating electric powertrains that deliver the acceleration and speed that we expect from luxury cars?

Lastly, I think your "market size estimation" here is dramatically off. BMW last year delivered 2.4 million total cars. They sold 103k "electric" vehicles last year, with 31k of the i3, and the rest probably being comprised of hybrid versions of their existing 3 and 5 series sedans. (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/latin-america-caribbean/artic...) This was 65.6% year over year growth. For 2018, they expect "high two-digit growth" to continue. The demand is there, even from their own existing customers.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by jcranmer on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:17PM (#17343308)
From the standpoint of anyone trying to sabotage Tesla, the risk/reward ratio is extremely high. To claim that someone is trying to do so is an extraordinary claim, and we all know the saying about extraordinary claims...
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by omarforgotpwd on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:33PM (#17343379)
Elon says that the person claimed he did it because he didn't get a promotion he wanted. That's probably true because it would be the least extraordinary possibility. But it doesn't hurt to consider and prepare for extraordinary circumstances.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by Jedd on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:32PM (#17343378)
> From the standpoint of anyone trying to sabotage Tesla, the risk/reward ratio is extremely high.

Can you show your working in that calculation please?

My understanding is that the reward / risk ratio is extremely high for more than a handful of obvious players.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by kbenson on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:46PM (#17343439)
That was my initial reaction to that assessment as well. Normally the risk-reward ratio is high, but with the largest short position of the market (at some point inthe last couple months, possibly still currently) at above $10 billion, that's a lot of potential reward that might be capable of being paid out, even when we consider that much of it is small individual positions.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by FortNightLord on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @02:00AM (#17344139)
Uh it says the guy admitted to it...and gave reasons...a confession is more than enough evidence.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by olivermarks on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @03:43AM (#17344522)
People at Tesla are working incredibly hard, they just had a FTE mass layoff and are relying heavily on 'associates'. This reminds me of the darker days at Zappos with their holocracy business model and all powerful vanity CEO. It's not hard to imagine the disgruntled moving fast and breaking things in frustration
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by d0mine on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @06:07AM (#17345196)
s/holocracy/holAcracy/
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by gota on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @06:35AM (#17345351)
I wish I saw this before taking to google and becoming disappointed that no hierarchy based on holograms exists
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by jcranmer on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:31AM (#17345951)
There's no evidence that the guy was paid to sabotage Tesla by any competitor or anything other than a purely personal grudge. That an upset worker intentionally sabotages a production line isn't the extraordinary claim; that your competition is paying some workers to sabotage your production lines is.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by saas_co_de on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:42AM (#17346489)
There is no evidence for any of the the claims being made. Unless we see a criminal investigation and charges this is nothing more than pr.

Musk does sound a bit like a paranoid crack head but the pr gambit is to distract from the recent string of tesla crashes and spontaneous combustions by floating the idea of sabotage.

Of course they cant directly allege sabotage because it is absurd but if you put the idea out there then people infer it.

Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by baby on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @04:54AM (#17344837)
This is the crazy thing about the stock market in general, it incentivizes you to cheat and get dirty in a lot of ways when a large amount of your money is in it.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by tomp on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @05:36AM (#17345043)
If anything, the stock market discourages this, because without it, people with a lot of money invested into things wouldn't be able to liquidate it at any price (before the investment matures), so they'd be more motivated to deploy illegal means to protect their wealth.
Re:Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging ... by gadders on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @04:25AM (#17344701)
I never know what to believe with Elon Musk - designing the hyperloop, selling flamethrowers etc.

However, if you did a find on replace on his email and swapped "Tesla" for "Theranos" you could imagine it being an act of desperation.