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Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 14, 2018 @03:29AM (#17310004)
> real wages never fully came back

Real median usual weekly earnings for full-time Americans 16 and over went from 332 1982-84 CPI-adjusted U.S. dollars in Q4 2007 to 350 in Q1 2018 [1]. Americans are in the midst of record high real wages.

Hourly wages for manufacturing employees haven't recovered to their 2004 peak, but they too are well above where they were pre-crisis [2].

Broadly, the country's balance sheet is healthier in 2018 than it was in 2008. Savings are higher, banks are plumper and then economy's productive capacity has grown. The next recession will be a regular one, not a full-blown crisis.

> It's about time for Silicon Valley to tank

Wall Street may beat us to it:

"Christopher Ricciardi, a former Merrill Lynch banker, was known as the 'grandfather of CDOs' for helping popularize these complex structured products that blew up during the financial crisis.

Now, he is bringing his experience to another corner of the financial world with mounds of debt: student loans" [3].

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

[2] https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/02/are-wages-increasing...

[2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/grandfather-of-cdos-trying-to-d...

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by tremon on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:10AM (#17311009)
> Americans are in the midst of record high real wages.

The article shows a different view: total wages dropped as a percentage of GDP from 50% post-WWII to 42% in 2011. This is the basis for the Ponzi-economy argument:

consumption is largely financed by accumulating debt liabilities to supplement inadequate wages and salaries, where government runs massive fiscal deficits, not only to support the income shortfalls of its citizens, but increasingly to serve and enhance corporate profits themselves

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:08AM (#17311354)
> The article shows a different view: total wages dropped as a percentage of GDP from 50% post-WWII to 42% in 2011

The article and I are in agreement on this narrow point. Wages as a fraction of GDP are down. Wages, themselves, are up.

Broadly, I disagree with the assertion that our economy's growth is unusually debt-fueled. Total debt as a fraction of GDP is worryingly high [1]. Strip out financial sector indebtedness, however, and we're where we were in the 80s. Household debt explains a relatively narrow slice of recent GDP growth.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_Unit...

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by fergie on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:34AM (#17310647)
But the big problem with CPI is that it fudges housing costs so that it doesn't properly take into account the massive rise in property prices.

Heres how it could be fixed: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/02/24/housing_infla...

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 14, 2018 @07:45AM (#17310893)
The U.S. measures mean real wages adjusted by cost of living to the county level. For example, Manhattanites earned 39.9 1999 U.S. dollars in 2009; that went up, adjusting for cost of living, to 50.36 in 2016 [1]. This trend, of higher real wages today than pre-crisis, is substantiated across the population.

Real wages have not gone up as much as productivity. And their gains have been unequally distributed. But it is important, in such discussions, to maintain objectivity. Most Americans are better off than they were before the crisis.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MWACL36061

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by Retric on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:52AM (#17311657)
The page you linked: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q Is employed wages which is why it went up from 2007 to 2009. It's really not measuring what you're describing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/192398/employment-rate-i...

Employment rate in the United States from 1990 to 2017. 63% in 07 60% in 2017. So we still have not gotten back, and it's still down.

PS: On very long timescales employment rate is a poor metric, but over the short term it says a lot more about the economy than 'unemployment' rate or employed wages. It for example very clearly shows the last 2 recessions unlike employed wages.

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by Animats on Thursday June 14, 2018 @03:58AM (#17310136)
See [1]. It's really hard to tell and there are big short-term swings.

[1] https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/02/are-wages-increasing...

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 14, 2018 @04:01AM (#17310150)
> It's really hard to tell and there are big short-term swings

I completely agree. That said, we have enough data to conclude that real wages are higher today than they were pre-crisis for the vast majority of Americans. The uncertainty is more pronounced if one were to ask the same question in respect of the last 4 or 5 years, in which case I'd have to say "we don't know".

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by lkrubner on Thursday June 14, 2018 @05:40AM (#17310477)
"for the vast majority of Americans"

That isn't quite right. Labor force participation fell after 2008, and it has never recovered. While wages might have seen a revival for those lucky enough to have a job, there remains a large block of people who were pushed out of the work force and never found a way back in. See the chart here:

http://www.smashcompany.com/business/labor-force-participati...

Labor force participation is age dependent. If someone is 45 they expect to work another 20 years. But if they lose their job, they have little hope of finding another job that pays as much as their previous job. Generally, an unemployed 50 year old would be lucky to get a minimum wage job. Presumably they made more than that during their career. They won't get back what they used to make (exceptions for those at the peak of their professions).

So folks with jobs are seeing slightly higher wages, but you also need to take into account all the folks who lost their jobs permanently.

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by pdkl95 on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:19AM (#17310591)
> you also need to take into account all the folks who lost their jobs permanently

Another group that needs to be taken into account is the younger generation that is having problems even starting a career.

My sister graduated from university a few years ago, and - like almost everybody else she knows in her generation - is bouncing between unemployment and terrible minimum wage jobs (some are de facto lower than minimum wage due to wage theft).

Re:Hallmark of an Economic Ponzi Scheme by tcbawo on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:33AM (#17311127)
Baby boomers had the luxury of low housing prices, a massive stock bull market, and low education costs. There was never a better time to start a business -- overhead was low. The generation coming up now has to hit the proverbial lottery to have a similar chance today given the high fixed living expenses of housing, student loans, and health care.