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Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by ramanujan on Sunday September 26, 2010 @09:27PM (#1730421)
Mark my words: all of Silicon Valley will regret it if the federal government gets involved in angel financing, "collusion" or no colllusion. It is not easy to build a Silicon Valley, but choking off deal flow with red tape could well destroy it.

When the government enters an area on the basis of negative press coverage, it does not have an informed opinion or a light touch. Think about it: years later, we are still taking off our shoes and surrendering our liquids at the airport. Policies written in haste after a media event are almost never revisited or changed, no matter how much economic damage they do.

I don't want to paint a mental picture by giving too many details, but you can imagine what any government assault on angels would do to the financing environment. This is exactly the kind of premise that a broke California (or federal) government can use to impose new taxes, just like police officers are ordered to increase ticketing when the city needs revenue.

Bottom line: the cure would be far, far, FAR worse than the disease.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by adrianwaj on Sunday September 26, 2010 @09:54PM (#1730480)
For me, minimum capital requirements to be an accredited investor is already far worse than the disease.

I'd prefer to see certification programs that people raising money must apply-for, and have that be the basis of whether an investment is valid for the market, rather than placing a capital requirement on potential investors as the way to determine if an investor is smart enough to reject scams, and thus save the government from complaints and minimize lawsuits than what would happen if joe public and his granny could invest their savings.

Perhaps there could be a certification program too for people wanting to invest.

This I think would free up capital and opportunity, ie real micro finance.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by gojomo on Sunday September 26, 2010 @10:24PM (#1730538)
Excellent ideas. Why does a $1mm net worth indicate more 'sophistication' than (for example) having an MBA, or business-law-focused JD, or having passed the Series-7 or bar exams?

Or, there could be a standard waiver-of-claims-of-unsophistication allowing those under the current 'accredited' limits to get the same legal treatment as those meeting the limits.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by adrianwaj on Sunday September 26, 2010 @11:03PM (#1730602)
Precisely.

I think the key with micro-finance is that investors can be diverse, and they can actively seek investments which they can then personally assist, and at the same time entrepreneurs can also try and locate the right investors who'll facilitate the growth of their system.

This is something baby-boomers would love doing, with the time, disposable income, and connections they can offer.

Furthermore, imagine being able to tell a CEO "we'll let you use our api but only if we can have equity in your system." In this case, microfinance supports systems integration.

Another benefit, is that micro-finance would allow entrepreneurs to raise funds more quickly to build more systems, with the goal of having 1 or 2 accepted into some larger system that can pay for its usage.

-- I am thinking a http://www.kiva.org but for entrepreneurs and investors. It'd have to track reputations and act as a hub for financings and subsequent distributions.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by lionhearted on Monday September 27, 2010 @12:45AM (#1730763)
> I'd prefer to see certification programs that people raising money must apply-for

I like the gist of your point, but this line scares me a lot. Too much opportunity for political favors or political blackballing.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by adrianwaj on Monday September 27, 2010 @06:44AM (#1731238)
Certification would more to do with proving an identity, a physical address, a bank account and being connected to real people. It's to make it more difficult for would-be scammers from being able to hide. Thus, a publically accessible website of who's raising money, for what, their photo, and some references who've vouched for this person would (I think and hope) significantly deter scammy behaviour. (of note, this type of information is becoming more accessible anyhow http://blog.programmableweb.com/2010/09/20/watch-out-for-ste... - stealthmodewatch.com)

On the other side of the coin, investors could take a simple multi-choice test on ROI, accounting and finance principles .. whatever.

I'd have to brainstorm further. If an arm has a problem, you don't cut it off, you fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again with creative solutions - because you're not solving any problem by amputating (or rather not applying that solution correctly if there are healthier alternatives), you're just creating more problems.

-- another solution may be to simply cap investments at a certain amount, so people can't invest their life-savings in one go.

-- also, a way to search on these micro investments (and micro investors too) would be great: http://www.google.com/finance/stockscreener http://www.formds.com/filings (hat tip gojomo)

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by protomyth on Monday September 27, 2010 @10:24AM (#1731761)
Certifications are generally used to keep people out of a market and allow entrenched players to control things. Look at the state of Louisiana's Florist License for and example of the absurd and protectionist.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by lzw on Monday September 27, 2010 @12:48AM (#1730770)
I cannot meet those "accredited investor" requirements, which if you think about it, are really meant to cut off dealflow for anyone who isn't already rich.

Meanwhile, I have easily lost an angel investment's sized amount of money in equities and derivatives I've controlled. (and made many times that in positive returns... but it is the losses the government pretends like they are protecting me from.)

I could have been putting $15k-$20k into several startups a year, for the past 15 years, up to one a month in recent years, if the government would let me.

Think about that-- it would have been ILLEGAL for me to invest in these companies (or for them to take my money)... while at the same time I've incurred complete losses of the same size in the public markets, and could blow all of it and more at any casino on the country in a weekend.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by joshu on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:57AM (#1730864)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accredited_investors

If you could put 15-20k a month into startups, how are you not meeting the accreditation reqs?

I think the requirements are to cut off companies from taking investments from little old ladies. It's the startup that would get in trouble, not you.

You considered talking to a lawyer?

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by lzw on Monday September 27, 2010 @06:47AM (#1731241)
I could put that amount in at the end of the period, not the beginning, and accredation requires either a higher salary than i have, or a net worth over a million, which I don't have.

If preventing little old ladies was all that was needed, then it could be accomplished with a wavier.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by joshu on Monday September 27, 2010 @08:06PM (#1734056)
The other issue that for angel investing is that you really ought to be doing 10+ investments a year to actually even out the risks so that you can get a return. That's a fairly high watermark.

I've done approx 45 investments. One has returned (a small amount) of money in five years, so far.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by newman314 on Monday September 27, 2010 @02:49AM (#1730953)
Not trying to throw Chris under the bus here but if his stated net worth is <$1million when he started, was he not in violation of the definition of "accredited investor" per Wikipedia?
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by gojomo on Monday September 27, 2010 @10:37AM (#1731797)
Not if his income was over $200K in the prior 2 years, and expected to be the same in the current year. The income level is an alternate, not additional, qualification.

And, perhaps he fudged some numbers, by inflating the value of something illiquid, to claim to be accredited slightly before he was.

As I understand it -- but could be wrong, IANAL -- this requirement isn't a matter of providing formal documentation to the government beforehand, but of asserting your status to the security issuer, perhaps with some documentation, and them accepting your assertion.

Only if things go south, and disputes/lawsuits begin, would the fact that money was accepted from non-accredited investors begin to cause liability and enforcement troubles for the issuers. So the issuers are motivated to ask for some documentation, but could also easily 'look the other way' or accept flimsy assertions in some instances.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by newman314 on Tuesday September 28, 2010 @06:06AM (#1735155)
Can anyone comment if documentation is typically required (by the lawyers or startup) from an angel investor or is this assumed (scary)?
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by sachinag on Sunday September 26, 2010 @09:39PM (#1730445)
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by alain94040 on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:00AM (#1730789)
That information is incorrect. There is as of today no crebible information proving that the FBI is on the story. Those articles you are referring to are either misquotes or arranged to be more sensionalistic.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by ajju on Sunday September 26, 2010 @10:01PM (#1730490)
Is FBI the agency tasked with investigating allegations of anti-competitive behavior? Interesting.

This is the last thing the valley needed though.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by _delirium on Monday September 27, 2010 @12:01AM (#1730701)
I don't think they have primary responsibility for antitrust law, but the FBI often assists the Department of Justice's Antitrust Division (http://www.justice.gov/atr/) with the fieldwork part of investigations (the FBI is an agency of the DoJ).
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by stretchwithme on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:01AM (#1730794)
I love how government, the most anti-competitive entity there is, will be investigating anti-competitive behavior. Physician, heal thyself.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by gjm11 on Monday September 27, 2010 @09:06AM (#1731516)
If I'm understanding your use of the word "anti-competitive" correctly, then any government, simply by virtue of being a government, is "anti-competitive". So what would constitute "healing"? Total anarchy? Welcome to Somalia.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by steveklabnik on Monday September 27, 2010 @10:11AM (#1731707)
There was a really good comment the other day regarding Somalia, but searchyc isn't finding it.

Basically, there's actually some studies that suggest Somalia is doing _better_ under 'anarchy' than not. It's only after the UN stopped trying to impose a state that things started getting better.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by gjm11 on Monday September 27, 2010 @11:12AM (#1731920)
I don't know about HN comments, but there indeed seem to be some studies suggesting that.

http://rru.worldbank.org/Documents/PapersLinks/280-nenova-ha... suggests that the private-sector economy in Somalia did OK during its period of anarchy. (Arguably it's still in anarchy, but less so than before 2006.)

http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf claims that Somalia's economic performance and standard of living "improved during its period of statelessness". Cautionary note: this paper was put out by a libertarian think tank; I don't know enough about their level of integrity to know whether that's worrying.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf says that the government of Somalia before its period of near-total anarchy was so awful that anarchy was better.

The main takeaway from all this is probably that a sufficiently bad government can be even worse than anarchy. But it also suggests that Somalia was in such a terrible state before its government collapsed completely that any troubles after that have a plausible explanation other than the evils of anarchy.

So, "Welcome to Somalia" was arguably unfair. On the other hand, there don't seem to be a lot of better examples of anarchies available for inspection...

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by steveklabnik on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:13PM (#1732371)
Yeah, really all we have is current Somalia, and the Spanish Civil War... there are others, just not as well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by ajju on Monday September 27, 2010 @03:56PM (#1733105)
I think the real test of whether anarchy is preferable to stable government ('anti-competitive' or not), is whether Somalia is doing better than the United States. A perfectly fair comparison would require Somalia to be under anarchy for the same number of years as the U.S. has been a democracy, but presumably you could pick younger democracies for an easier comparison.

I think you will find that:

1) Anarchies, almost by definition, spill into neighboring countries in the form of violence and/or refugess. This is the reason the U.N. intervenes in the first place.

2) A system of governance imposed by outsiders may be worse than anarchy, but self-governance, given a decade or more, will result in conditions better than anarchy. Indeed, I believe that left alone, an anarchy over time will develop into some form of stable government. Usually it's a dictatorship but there is a small chance it may be some form of self governance.

These are both as yet unproven claims based on my intuition of course. If someone has data to back these up or refute them, that would be really interesting.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by steveklabnik on Monday September 27, 2010 @04:22PM (#1733226)
I think you're conflating the two definitions of anarchy, though you make good points if you s/anarchy/chaos/g;.

I, too, wish there was better data on this.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by stretchwithme on Tuesday September 28, 2010 @03:44PM (#1736967)
You don't have to have anarchy to have competition in government. When people recognize individual sovereignty, its not necessary to fight over who will protect a piece of land and its people from thieves and invaders. Its just a matter of contract.

People can peacefully collaborate on their mutual security without coercing each other.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by lzw on Monday September 27, 2010 @06:22AM (#1731201)
I hate how you were down voted for pointing out a simple truth. Every industry government gets involved in, it passes laws making competition illegal. We had a thriving and quickly growing mail industry in this country before government took it over (for the purpose of censorship at the time) and made delivering first class mail illegal. They actually do sting operations and fine companies caught forwarding "non time sensitive mail" via fedex!

This is just one example. Obama took over general motors by force, against the will of bond holders and handed out a large chunk to the unions.... And then a few months later a big scare was started against Toyota on spurious grounds. This is not a coincidence.

Recently they made it illegal to sell private health insurance (not fully in effect yet so you can still get it, though prices are rising) and soon only government insurance will be available, though private companies will be allowed to underwrite, presuming of course, that they currier enough favor with government regulators.

The very definition of government-- a monopoly on the use of force over a geographic region- is anti competitive, as it prevents ant other governments from forming in the area... Even if the people in a particular area prefer a different form of government.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by adrianwaj on Monday September 27, 2010 @07:33AM (#1731332)
This is Pres Obama's experience with health care... what would you be doing to fix health care?

"I remember my mother. She was 52 years old when she died of ovarian cancer, and you know what she was thinking about in the last months of her life? She wasn’t thinking about getting well. She wasn't thinking about coming to terms with her own mortality. She had been diagnosed just as she was transitioning between jobs. And she wasn’t sure whether insurance was going to cover the medical expenses because they might consider this a preexisting condition. I remember just being heartbroken, seeing her struggle through the paperwork and the medical bills and the insurance forms. So, I have seen what it's like when somebody you love is suffering because of a broken health care system. And it's wrong. It's not who we are as a people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by stretchwithme on Monday September 27, 2010 @03:50PM (#1733073)
I like the Swiss system. People can actually move their neighborhood to a different canton or create a new one if the one they don't like how things are run in the canton they are in. And it rarely happens, simply because it can.

And the people must approve many measures and certainly those changing the constitution of the country. They have referendums all the time and also proportional representation, which aligns the legislature with the voters.

Of course, this means Switzerland minds it own business and won't invade other countries, but I guess that's the downside of government not driven by anti-competitive urges.

The downvotes are ok. There seems to be an element here that doesn't like it when you state the obvious, but most are rational though.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by dschobel on Sunday September 26, 2010 @11:56PM (#1730696)
Is the story getting any coverage outside the SV echo chamber?

I'd be quite surprised if we see the issue cross over into the mainstream.

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by jogle on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:00AM (#1730790)
I read something on msnbc a couple days ago but can't find the link. Here are some from more mainstream sources than TechCrunch, though:

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2010/09/24/the-daily-sta...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/maggieshiels/2010/09...

http://www.businessinsider.com/angelgate-is-overblown-2010-9

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by razin on Monday September 27, 2010 @03:56AM (#1731038)
I'd hardly consider Business Insider to be mainstream.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by TheCondor on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:38PM (#1732486)
I was going to ask this with it be limited to not just the SV echo chamber but the Techcrunch one as well.

What stood out to me the most, maybe because I'm not in SV, but the claim that ~10 "angels" were involved with 99% of the startups in SV. That just doesn't seem possible in a really healthy startup environment. I mean, there are startups that self boot-strap, there are startups that have a single owner that can fund them, there are startups that have a reputation and pedigree and go straight to institutional funding. There are also companies that stay below radar. How many software companies are we talking about in the greater SV Bay Area? 1200? 1500? And these 10 guys are in nearly all of them? Surely these are only the startups that fill in their crunchbase details or something, right?

Does nobody go outside the valley for funding?

Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by known on Monday September 27, 2010 @07:05AM (#1731271)
I've a different pov. Govt intervention aka regulation is needed whenever & wherever there is an exploitation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfinance#Other_criticisms
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by sfgary1 on Tuesday September 28, 2010 @12:38AM (#1734581)
Though these guys have an outsize influence on Web 2.0 apps there are still enough angels out there to minimize the effect of any possibility of collusion among a few angels. If that was what the meeting was about, which I doubt. I think this is a storm in a teacup.The government has enough things to worry about in an economy going south to do anything here.
Re:AngelGate: Chris Sacca Responds To Ron Conway by bhiggins on Monday September 27, 2010 @01:01AM (#1730793)
I think it's far more likely that, already, the only ones with regrets will be the ones involved.