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Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by carlmr on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:19AM (#17302033)
That self interest is usually rooted in how society would react to your behavior. So in the end if it's society basing the idea that something is immoral on religion, you're still indirectly basing it on religion.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by JohnStrangeII on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:54AM (#17302212)
I don't want to defend a naturalistic perspective on morals, which is unfortunately popular nowadays and leads to a lot of immorality, but there are definitely bio-logical reasons for not killing others in your group. Humans are altruistic, group-based apes whose survival depends on collaboration. Originally, this might have been small groups only. Today society is based on the collaboration between (nearly all) nations, because modern technology and labour division would break down entirely within about six weeks without massive global trade and shipping.

There are also some moral principles that follow directly from factual matters, provided some very basic first assumptions are made. Theories of just resource distribution and social justice are of that kind. The principles that get things going are very basic, e.g. reciprocity, generality of moral statements, and fairness in the sense of trade/bargaining/exchange fairness get you very far.

It is a myth that religion provides values, as it can be shown very easily by historical comparison that it never has. The values defended by major religions such as Christianity and Islam have changed over the centuries again and again. Modern Christian values, for instance, mostly come from the enlightenment movement and were not endorsed at all earlier. (Christianity is just an example, AFAIK this is true for all religions.)

Churches and 'holy men' have always had a vested interest in selling their values as a product of their religion, though, and they are very good at selling this false story to the public.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by trashtester on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:50AM (#17303601)
I'm curious: What "first assumptions" do refer to as "very basic"?

Also, for the final paragraph: Your theory of religion seems to be based on intelligent design. I think it is more accurate (and less prone to conspiracy theories) to think of the evolution of religious memes in darwinist terms of "natural" selection.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by JohnStrangeII on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:17AM (#17380686)
The Principle of Reciprocity, the No Harm Principle, and Democratic Power Division.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by catawbasam on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @08:23AM (#17302365)
Wat? "Thou shalt not kill" (or more accurately "Thou shalt not murder") has been there since the get-go in both Judaism and Christianity.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by JohnStrangeII on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:13AM (#17380675)
Sure, but there is no prohibition against genocide, for instance.