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Re:On paying for software by kaibee on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:49AM (#17278098)
> but it certainly isn't natural.

So what? Nothing about software development is 'natural'. I don't even know what definition of 'natural' you're using here.

> It's a phony concept that exists to support an unnatural business model.

It's a social construct that we've adopted in society because it allows for things we like.

> The real business model should be players paying you directly to develop and update the game they want to play for as long as they want to play it.

This is a valid business model for some games, but there are many games that would not exist without such a model. I'd prefer that those games exist instead of insisting that reality should be the way that fits nicely with my arbitrary mental models.

Re:On paying for software by matheusmoreira on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:13AM (#17278191)
>I don't even know what definition of 'natural' you're using here.

Copying data is a fundamental operation that all computers are able to perform and it costs nothing. Therefore, data is naturally easy to copy.

Software doesn't need to be manufactured like physical goods do: the software construction step is fully automated by compilers and build systems. The cost of all this is approximately $0. Networks aren't free because of bandwidth costs, but they still make it really easy and cheap to copy data to a lot of computers.

Since games are software and software is data, it is rather easy to distribute them to an unbounded number of machines. Even if you come up with some complicated copy protection scheme, people only need to crack it once and produce a DRM-free version of the game that will work everywhere and won't do stupid things such as require an internet connection. Even cryptographically secure platforms such as the PS4 eventually got cracked and the first thing people did is enable the execution of unsigned software.

>insisting that reality should be the way that fits nicely with my arbitrary mental models

That's exactly what copyright does.

Re:On paying for software by rootlocus on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:56AM (#17278682)
> Software doesn't need to be manufactured like physical goods do: the software construction step is fully automated by compilers and build systems.

Source code surely is manufactured. I write it with my hands, using years of knowledge and experience, spending a lot of time on it.

Re:On paying for software by vram22 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:42PM (#17279189)
>Source code surely is manufactured. I write it with my hands, using years of knowledge and experience, spending a lot of time on it.

Right. We not only write it with our hands, but with our brains too, as well as with the effort we put in over years to gain the skills needed to write the software in the first place. Otherwise any newbie programmer could write any of the software in the world, including complex ones.

This reminds me of that story of a senior retired engineer who was called in to diagnose a problem with some expensive, complex machine that he had worked with or operated a lot earlier (and/or maybe had invented). He walks into the room, bends down near the machine, taps it a bit, then makes an X mark with chalk near the bottom left corner. "There's your problem", he says. They open the machine, check that area, and sure enough, the fault is found and fixed. They ask him what his fee is. "$50,000", he replies. "What?", they ask. "$50,000 for making a chalk mark?". "No", he says. "$1 for making the mark. $49,999 for knowing where to make it."

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/06/tap/

Re:On paying for software by matheusmoreira on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:49PM (#17297307)
Exactly. You're providing a service. The digital goods, once produced, can be replicated infinitely at extremely low costs. Nobody can create copies of you or your expertise.

In order to pay for your software development services and turn a profit, the digital goods you produce are made artificially scarce so as to enable their sale. However, that does not change the nature of those goods. Copying them is still trivial.

Re:On paying for software by Torwald on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:35AM (#17278294)
> Copying data is a fundamental operation that all computers are able to perform and it costs nothing.

That is not true. Running, maintaining, etc the IT infrastructure is costing money, electricity etc. It doesn't come for free.

Re:On paying for software by ttoinou on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:37AM (#17278593)
Marginal and transaction costs are very low.

But you are right on the principle : storing, copying and transferring data always costs energy (in physics, temperature, energy and change of entropy are linked together)

Re:On paying for software by Torwald on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:00PM (#17278700)
OK, maybe you still have a point. What then, would be the threshold for saying: now, at this point, the costs of X are not marginal anymore but substantial enough to be taken into account?
Re:On paying for software by matheusmoreira on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:15PM (#17278779)
According to Wikipedia, the best selling video game is Tetris: it has sold approximately 170 000 000¹ copies. If copying Tetris takes 1 second, the computer draws 400 W of power and electricity is rated at 30 cents/kWh, it would cost approximately $5667 to create 170 million copies of Tetris.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_gam...

Re:On paying for software by ttoinou on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:54PM (#17278942)
Depends on what you are thinking about ? Such cost always need to be taken into account, but IMHO in general we must always differentiate material things (that are formed from matter and its organization) and information (i.e. concept of entropy, ideas, thoughts, songs, language, jokes etc..) which have temporary physical supports but exists apart from them
Re:On paying for software by Torwald on Sunday June 10, 2018 @05:56PM (#17280388)
Good distinction, I agree. This leads me to this: If, for example a song, is not written down anywhere, but some brains contain it, this means there some people who could reproduce this song by singing it, this song would still exist. Is a brain a temporal physical support unit in our sense?
Re:On paying for software by ttoinou on Sunday June 10, 2018 @06:06PM (#17280434)
Yes of course. As long as we have electricity in our brains we can store and process information. The very precise implementation of this would require to study biology (it's already interesting to see that we run on electricity like computers!).
Re:On paying for software by Torwald on Sunday June 10, 2018 @07:03PM (#17280637)
Ok, cool, now, how is the number eight, for instance. Does it exist only because human brains have it in it? Or do numbers exist in the universe outside our brains? Can we answer this? This would be an important step in IP rights and all that…
Re:On paying for software by ttoinou on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:05AM (#17282845)
It's a whole philosophical question...I would say yes maths and humans abstractions exist independently !
Re:On paying for software by dragonwriter on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:19PM (#17278793)
“Marginal costs” are the additional cost for each additional unit delivered. They can be high or low, but with modern, non-custom software they tend to be extremely low.
Re:On paying for software by matheusmoreira on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:35AM (#17278577)
Suppose that a copy takes 1 second to complete and the computer's power supply unit draws 400 W of power during that 1 second. How much does it cost to complete that copy? Hawaii has the most expensive electricity¹ in the United States, averaging at 29.23 cents / kW * h. Let's use 30 cents / kW * h.

If we have 400 W sustained for one second, that equals 0.000111111111 kW * h. (400 Watt * second) * (30 cents / kWh) = 3.33333333 × 10^-5 U.S. dollars. In Hawaii, that one copy would cost $0.0000333333. If one were to make 100 000 copies of that same data, it would cost $3.33333333.

¹ https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/

Re:On paying for software by rootlocus on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:57AM (#17278687)
This is a very large strawman you've constructed.
Re:On paying for software by matheusmoreira on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:01PM (#17278704)
Please explain what the problem with what I wrote is.
Re:On paying for software by antris on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:16AM (#17278210)
> So what? Nothing about software development is 'natural'. I don't even know what definition of 'natural' you're using here.

I'm quite sure they're referring to artificial scarcity. Making copies is very easy, making games is very hard. Therefore it makes much more sense to charge for the development of the game rather than the copies. Making abundant resources artificially scarce is either frowned upon or flat-out illegal in pretty much every other industry.

> there are many games that would not exist without such a model

How do you know?

Re:On paying for software by TimJYoung on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:56AM (#17278382)
Okay, so I'm going to charge for my development time - how exactly am I going to divide that up among the customers, many of which don't exist yet, without over-charging anyone and how are you going to make sure I don't do so in a way that doesn't "illegally institute artificial scarcity" ?

The issue here is that there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. Toro could choose to cut production of their lawnmowers by half and double the price, and this would cause "artificial scarcity". However, it would also be perfectly legal and downright stupid of Toro because the competitive lawnmower market would punish them dearly for it.

Re:On paying for software by antris on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:03AM (#17278414)
> Okay, so I'm going to charge for my development time - how exactly am I going to divide that up among the customers, many of which don't exist yet, without over-charging anyone and how are you going to make sure I don't do so in a way that doesn't "illegally institute artificial scarcity" ?

It's not my job to invent business models for other people, but all Kickstarter-type funded software is a good example of one possible way. Another is maintaining and updating a gaming server and charging for access to it, like World of Warcraft does.

> The issue here is that there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. Toro could choose to cut production of their lawnmowers by half and double the price, and this would cause "artificial scarcity". However, it would also be perfectly legal and downright stupid of Toro because the competitive lawnmower market would punish them dearly for it.

If you had a device to copy lawnmowers, but the lawnmower industry fought back to make copying lawnmowers illegal, then you'd have a working comparison.

Re:On paying for software by TimJYoung on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:28AM (#17278536)
The software industry had/has a lucrative, self-sustaining business model that was very much the same as every other business on the planet. I'm a part of that industry, so I do have a business model. IOW, I'm not the one trying to tell someone that they shouldn't charge for their efforts/products, so it seems to me that the onus on coming up with a workable model is on those that have been trying to institute the "everything is free" model for some time, not me.

As for your other comment: I believe there's a saying that covers this:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if_my_aunt_had_balls,_she%27d...

Re:On paying for software by renox on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:57AM (#17278125)
> Nothing about software development is 'natural'

Why do you say so?

> I don't even know what definition of 'natural' you're using here

I think that he's talking about the ease of copying software: it's quite hard to make people pay for something so easy to duplicate..

Re:On paying for software by malloryerik on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:18AM (#17278494)
"You cannot go against nature Because when you do Go against Nature It's part of nature too." -- Love and Rockets, "No New Tale to Tell"

In the scientific sense, everything is natural. Truly "unnatural" things are like supernatural things -- stuff that exists only in fairy tales or horror stories or some metaphysical religions.

Saying that something is unnatural is typically a value judgement meaning that it is unhelpful, damaging, or against a goal considered inherent in some area of life, and so on.

Otherwise, a more valid if unfortunate use of the word "unnatural" is as the common short-hand for "human-made" or "artificial", similar to the way that "animal" is used as a short-hand for "animal that isn't human". Of course propulsion labs, parliaments, and property laws are absolutely as natural as mushrooms, mollusks, and manatees, but in addition to being natural the former are also human-made. In this truest and widest sense, everything that is artificial is also natural.

Other uses of the words "natural", "unnatural", and "nature" should be informed by this broadest and truest one, especially when making judgements about laws or norms or behavior. This might sound pedantic, didactic or even obvious at first, but with some consideration it may reveal itself as a surprisingly useful and clarifying point to keep in mind.

Rather than proclaiming copyright laws unnatural -- a value judgment masquerading as an objective fact (perhaps unintentionally) -- it would be more fruitful to ask questions such as, "How does copyright differ from other property laws?", "How are property rights justified?", "What are the differences and similarities between physical things and ideas?", and so on.

Yes, it's nearly free to copy digital works, which therefore lack the same level of scarcity that we experience in the rest of our lives.

Yet the creators and consumers of intellectual and digital works have little choice but to create and consume those works in the broader context of the world of physical scarcity in which society is embedded. It's sad, but you can't stop burning calories and taking up space just because you are consuming digital media.

Re:On paying for software by afarrell on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:03AM (#17278151)
> > Nothing about software development is 'natural'

> Why do you say so?

Because building even the simplest computers requires large-scale industrial processes. All of this is based on a social/economic system that required the intelligent design of many many people and organizations.