News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Someone on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:40PM (#17275408)
A few things you’ll have to correct for:

- Tesla’s cars are newer and more expensive than the average car on US roads (making them safer)

- Tesla’s Autopilot mostly, if not only, gets used on roads that are safer than average.

- Tesla drivers may have had to intervene a lot to prevent more deaths.

- not all those Tesla’s ended up on US roads (probably not something with large impact)

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Retric on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:16PM (#17275733)
Don't get me wrong they very well may be significantly less safe than an attentive human driver in good conditions on good roads. However, they are reasonably close and the average driver is not going to improve any time soon while self driving cars will.

The trend of things machines can do better than people really only goes in one direction. Further people are vastly worse at driving than they think, over 1.25 million people die per year due to car accidents. That's insane.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rootusrootus on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:35PM (#17275780)
I don't think 'insane' is accurate. What you're really showing is just how many people there are on the planet. You have to drive about 100,000,000 miles before your odds of being involved in a fatal accident approach 1. Or put another way, about 7500 years.

On top of that, when you factor in the utility of driving a car, the risk/reward ratio looks stellar. Humans are better drivers than given credit for, and it will be some time (much longer than a lot of enthusiasts will admit) before computers manage to match that.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Retric on Sunday June 10, 2018 @08:06AM (#17277723)
Yea no. ~55.3 million people die each year worldwide and ~1.3 million of them are from cars so that's 1 in 43 deaths are from cars.

That's one of the top killers anyway you slice it and every single one of those deaths is preventable.

PS: Truckers drive up to 3,000 miles per week * 48 weeks per year * 47 years (65-18) that's ~6.7 million miles. US death rate is ~1:88 million miles on average. So if they where as dangerous as average that's ~1 death per 13 truckers. However, they are safer than this and average less miles. Still, it's one of the most dangerous US jobs.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Someone on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:58PM (#17279621)
”the average driver is not going to improve any time soon while self driving cars will.”

I don’t see how that’s an argument in favor of letting today’s self driving cars loose on the road.

We don’t let people without any driving experience drive cars either because, if we let them, they “will improve soon”.

Or are you suggesting letting self-driving cars loose now is a necessary sacrifice we have to make to make progress?

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by astura on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:00PM (#17281206)
>We don’t let people without any driving experience drive cars either because, if we let them, they “will improve soon”.

Yes we do, that's exactly what a learner's permit is for.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rayiner on Saturday June 09, 2018 @10:55PM (#17276159)
In the U.S., people drive 3.22 trillion miles per year. At about 40,000 deaths per year, that's one death per 80 million miles driven.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Retric on Sunday June 10, 2018 @08:04AM (#17277712)
~2.7 milllion people die in the US each year. 40,000 vechile deaths means a little more than 1 in 70 deaths is from cars.

And every single one of them is a preventable tragedy.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Dylan16807 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @06:03AM (#17277411)
If you're measuring the raw efficiency of the self-driving mechanism, you have to correct for those.

If you're measuring whether the actual experience of using autopilot meets the prevailing standards by which we judge "safe enough" as a country, you don't want to correct for those first three.

Especially the "the cars are new and safe overall" factor. Correcting for that is like "correcting for" the fact that all the dangerous lithium ion cells are carefully packed and armored, and coming to the conclusion that sitting in a Tesla is less safe than sitting in a bonfire.

It makes the arguments a lot worse when people don't distinguish those two questions.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Someone on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:00PM (#17279639)
I replied to Retric’s claim about Autopilot ”I think these are already fairly close to human fatality rates”

If (and that’s likely) other features than Autopilot contribute to Teslas killing and injuring fewer people, we must compensate for them to judge whether Autopilot is a net benefit.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Retric on Sunday June 10, 2018 @04:43PM (#17280053)
Net benifit is even more tricky than that as you need to include things like the heath benifits of a more relaxed commute.

All my line of argument is trying to adress is how long until self driving cars are 'ready' which directly relates to how capable they are today. The data I looked at suggested somewhere above 'drunk driver' but below 'school buss driver'. That seems like an extreme range, but they are each human levels of competence. Which is different than they are being portrayed and IMO a sign they are very close to ready.

While the points you bring up are meaningful, we let people drive without those safty features. So, in terms of policy it seems like an ever higher bar, as for example automated breaking systems and lane following raise the bar above human competence, but again are not being installed on older cars.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Dylan16807 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @05:33PM (#17280266)
Now apply my analogy. All that armor around the battery cells contributes to Teslas setting fewer people on fire. We must compensate for it to see if lithium ion is a net benefit.

Which... doesn't really make sense. The safety features are part of the package. You can't get the dangerous part without them.

No cars are sold with a big blob of naked unprotected lithium ion cells. And no cars are sold with autopilot but not high-end crash protection.

A feature being dangerous in isolation is not enough to show that it lacks net benefit.