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Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by notheguyouthink on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @11:25AM (#17238544)
This is being a little extremist, no? I'm consistently asked to give estimates, and I mostly give estimates that are accurate within sane expectations.

I think what's missing here is that I can predict how long something is going to take when I talk with the managers/feature-planners about what the feature is. If I feel I have a solid understanding of the requirements, which pieces of code it'll touch, etc - then I can give a reasonable estimate.

Now, the bigger the project the more difficult this becomes. Details I've missed is always a possibility, and that just stacks up the bigger the project is.

So I think being specific in this type of discussion is really important. A feature that's going to take 6 months to implement is insanely tough to estimate, and very likely to have a wrong estimate. A feature that takes a week can pretty reliably be accurate within a day or two, in my experience.

I'm not defending management in these sorts of things.. I think it's our job to not only give estimates, but include understanding about the expected validity of that estimate.

All estimates are worth while though, your post makes it sound like they're not. You tell me you need a feature that's going to take 12+ months? It's so hard to predict that it's laughably wrong.. but that's still insanely useful. Why? Because now the management knows it's highly unlikely to be a 1 week, 1 month, w/e feature. It's big.

Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by Aaargh20318 on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @11:42AM (#17238732)
> I think what's missing here is that I can predict how long something is going to take when I talk with the managers/feature-planners about what the feature is. If I feel I have a solid understanding of the requirements, which pieces of code it'll touch, etc - then I can give a reasonable estimate.

I'd argue you can't.

Right now I'm working on a feature that I estimated as 'a couple of hours'. I've been working on it all day by now. Not because the feature is that difficult, or because I didn't get a set of good requirements. The requirements are crystal clear and should be easy to implement.

The reason it's taking so long is that I'm fighting with a UI component that doesn't behave as expected (or documented). What should have been a trivial part of this task, a matter of seconds and not worth estimating at all, turns out to take all day because I didn't know this specific component is misbehaving and I couldn't have known until I started implementing it.

You cannot predict things like that without doing it.

Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by laaph on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @05:52AM (#17245679)
I'm trying to get an app to the app store. Mysteriously, the archive button on XCode isn't working. It says it compiles successfully and yet there is no archive to submit when I'm done. I've googled all over and everyone else has a different solution to this problem. This little issue has delayed release a day so far.

I've done this 50 times before (10 times in this project!) and these kinds of issues still occasionally occur. How does anyone predict for this kind of thing?

Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by notheguyouthink on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:12PM (#17239090)
> Right now I'm working on a feature that I estimated as 'a couple of hours'. I've been working on it all day by now. Not because the feature is that difficult, or because I didn't get a set of good requirements. The requirements are crystal clear and should be easy to implement.

Just because you're wrong sometimes doesn't mean you can't be right more often than not.

Another way to look at it is, as a company how can you budget anything if you can't make even the slightest of estimations?

What you're suggesting results in throwing away any ability to budget, roadmap, coordinate, etcetc. Absolute prediction is of course impossible, but if what you're saying is true than I should buy a lottery ticket because my estimations are insanely lucky.

And sure, I get estimations that run long, we all do - I'm not saying otherwise.

Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by cabalspecter on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @02:33AM (#17244801)
This is for me the dissonance between agile methodologies and reality. Agile methodologies assume having a flexible scope and time due to the project unknowns (technical, business, social, etc.). But usually budgeting in the real world is required to follow: I promise to deliver X scope that’s going to cost Y dollars in Z time.
Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by chiefalchemist on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @11:46AM (#17238789)
Oh. I feel your pain.

But to clarify: You can't predict things well that you haven't done before.

The point being, when trying to predict an unknown it's best to give a range and not a fixed estimate. If possible.

Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by jrs235 on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @08:38PM (#17243459)
And then management only hears the low number of the range.
Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by jacques_chester on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @09:04PM (#17243593)
"Will management abuse the estimation process?" is a different question from "is estimation possible and improvable?"
Re:Why Development Teams Struggle to Deliver on Time, on Bud... by chrisbennet on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @02:40AM (#17244824)
I like to use the range: “2 weeks to 2 years - roughly.”