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Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by hueving on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:06AM (#17194990)
But you're clearly not doing what you can. You're just doing what's convenient.

You still eat meat in one of the most important times not to eat meat (in front of others) if you are truly driven by ethics for animals. You refuse to work on defense-funded projects because companies in your field have a pretend isolation mechanism (here's a hint: unless they are actually separate companies, they aren't isolated) that allows you to think you aren't supporting the military despite working for the company supporting the military.

This type of behavior shocks idealists. Even though it's better than nothing, just doing little bits here and there where convenient actually makes it harder to change the status quo for idealists (because you think you're helping when you're not).

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by Melkman on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:53AM (#17195145)
Then, as an idealist, what do you expect from other people to reach your goal ? If 50% of the people do 80% of what is needed you're at 40% of your goal. If 10% of the people do 100% you're only at 10% plus you've turned your goal in to an "us vs them" instead of "everybody for the greater good". Voting with your wallet 80% of the time is a valid means to support what you think is right. An idealistic minority doesn't change the world. The majority does.
Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by grepsign on Thursday May 31, 2018 @06:05AM (#17195184)
Exactly.

I think a more CS way to think about it is shipping out a MVP vs. shipping out a 100% perfect, 100% feature complete, 100% bug free, 100% documented, product.

I think everybody would be happy to start a project and ship out that 100% finished product, but you'll spend your entire life working on this and die without succeeding because it doesn't exist. So the choices are to 1) not bother, 2) do what you can (MVP), or 3) work until you die as a failure. OP would want me to choose 1 or 3, it seems.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by hueving on Thursday May 31, 2018 @12:26PM (#17197620)
Do the things that have a real impact.

Choosing to work for a defense contractor with restrictions on projects gives them nearly as much benefit as without the restrictions. The fruits of your labor are still easily funneled into military projects and at a minimum they are keeping the company alive longer while serving the military.

This isn't someone doing 80% of what's required. It's them doing active harm to a cause while continuing to take credit for pretending to help.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by obelix_ on Thursday May 31, 2018 @07:20AM (#17195485)
Well done. Great logic. The majority can also prop up a Kim Kardashian and Trump who met in the Whitehouse today and took a nice selfie. Those two idealists are taking your majority for great ride pal.
Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by grepsign on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:56AM (#17195159)
You're not wrong on the first statement. I am doing what's convenient. But I am also doing what I can with what's laid out in front of me. Basically every single company in my field has ties and contracts with military, so what, am I suppose to just change careers? I enjoy what I do, and I think military projects are neat in the technical sense, but that doesn't mean I want a part in it.

I'm not an idealist. The world isn't black and white.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by hueving on Thursday May 31, 2018 @12:30PM (#17197654)
>so what, am I suppose to just change careers?

Of course. If you like to make ice cream and the only organization employing people to make ice cream is the mafia, you stop making ice cream professionally.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by extralego on Thursday May 31, 2018 @10:00AM (#17196332)
>Am I supposed to just change

You should absolutely change jobs if your current one is immoral, and careers if it comes to that. This much is obvious.

The problem is in the hurdles making that difficult or unrealistic. In America, this process could leave you and your family homeless, maybe bankrupt if anything goes wrong. This fear leaves (maybe most) people in jobs they know to be immoral, and society is that much worse off because of it.

I think you should be doing whatever you can do* to create a society in which people are not forced to act immorally, such as you have been.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by TulliusCicero on Thursday May 31, 2018 @07:03AM (#17195420)
That kind of black and white thinking implies that the only moral way to live is as a monk, if you're ever spending money on say, a vacation or a new TV or eating out, well why don't you give that money to charity you monster??

You can believe that people have a moral obligation to do good, without believing that people have a moral obligation to maximize good in every aspect of their lives.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by pdkl95 on Thursday May 31, 2018 @08:00AM (#17195650)
Idealism isn't about living as a monk, it's about not compromising on the things that are often seen as "trivial" or "inconsequential". Most people don't jump from acting ethically to accepting work on that is obviously problematic. What actually happens is a long series of small, trivial compromises and other deviations that eventually become normalized[1].

Humans make mistakes; it isn't possible to live the "ideal monk" life. The real question is how small problems are handled? Compromising when the problem isn't a "big enough" ethical problem inevitably[2] pushes that boundary back in a cycle of normalized small, easily avoided deviances. Instead, if a hard line is taken against small problems when they are still small, a lot of larger problems can be avoided.

[1] https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/Diane_Vaughan_...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGLYEDpNu60

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by TulliusCicero on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:01AM (#17195928)
> Idealism isn't about living as a monk, it's about not compromising on the things that are often seen as "trivial" or "inconsequential".

Not seeing the distinction here. If you're an idealist the way hueving indicated and don't live as a monk, you're necessarily compromising on your values every day. And not on trivial or inconsequential things either, since you could easily donate to a variety of non-trivial causes.

What you're suggesting just sounds like reflexive goalpost-moving: the compromises I make are okay, the compromises others make are not.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by extralego on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:48AM (#17196249)
Morals never serve individually. They serve to facilitate a social environment that favors a group to effectively work as a team. The reality of this is sure to be rife with contradictions, especially at individual scale, but somehow they effort is not contradictory if we consider the madness of a society erased of it’s morals. The challenge of this contradiction can be overcome through conviction and forgiveness alone. It’s essentially the scientific argument for religion. I would like to think nobody would say this is easy, but many people do say it’s easy. It’s not. It’s nearly impossible, but humans have done it time and time again.
Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by TulliusCicero on Thursday May 31, 2018 @06:15PM (#17200801)
What kicked off this whole chain was a discussion on whether a particular individual's decision was moral or not.

"This ideology is impractical/contradictory but still effective in a group" is a potential valid point to make in another context, but irrelevant to what we were specifically discussing here.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by hueving on Thursday May 31, 2018 @12:34PM (#17197689)
No, it's not about living as a monk, it's about not compromising when things really matter.

Refusing to work for a defense contractor has a real long-term impact because you are depriving them of your labor. Working for a defense contractor but not on specific projects is meaningless because they still profit from you and support the military.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by TulliusCicero on Thursday May 31, 2018 @06:12PM (#17200785)
> No, it's not about living as a monk, it's about not compromising when things really matter.

If you cut back on living expenses, you could give thousands every year to hungry kids or the environment or [insert good cause here]. Those are all things that really matter. Especially over the course of many years, you could make a real difference. You don't get to handwave away this point just because it's inconvenient to your argument.

You're trying to find a loophole in your own logic to excuse your own behavior that violates your self-proclaimed values. I get that nobody likes cognitive dissonance, but it's quite obvious you're not being internally consistent here.

Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by _vertigo on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:14AM (#17195013)
Clearly he is rejecting the idealist viewpoint, so what does it matter if what he is saying “shocks idealists”?
Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by hueving on Thursday May 31, 2018 @12:35PM (#17197702)
He asked "what's so hard to understand?" so I explained.
Re:How a Pentagon Contract Became an Identity Crisis for Google by micheldlebeau on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:16AM (#17195017)
Maybe the issue is with idealists, having a white or black view of the world, then?