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Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:25AM (#17186020)
If you're a fan of Moore's Law and the Singularity, you'll love the reasoning of backtrapolating the exponentially increasing complexity of life over time... to get 0 well before the formation of the earth https://www.technologyreview.com/s/513781/moores-law-and-the...
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by perl4ever on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:41PM (#17192110)
That's exactly why I was on the side of panspermia already. But the number of rogue planets makes a nice independent path to the same conclusion.

An interesting question to me is - if the Earth was seeded with life, does this mean we will find life elsewhere in the solar system, because they were too, or does it mean we will not find life elsewhere, because a rogue planet collided with proto earth in a very unlikely event, and the rest of the solar system (or at least the potential life supporting objects) came out of a sterile nebula around the sun?

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by m_mueller on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:54AM (#17186393)
What about Fermi's paradox though? I mean, where is everyone?
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by throwaway7312 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:27AM (#17186779)
Uncontacted tribes in the Amazon likely wonder the same thing. It's such a big Earth, yet only a few hundred humans are known to exist.

Why are there no other detectable signs of human life, like smoke signals, territory markers, or emissaries from any more but a handful of other tribes? Surely if advanced humans existed, they would have contacted these tribes by now, to share technology, discoveries, and medicine. Yet they haven't.

How can the whole planet be so... silent?

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by chongli on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:46AM (#17186890)
If they're not aware of any other humans (let alone all the cities out there) then they're likely not aware of the actual size of the earth. Perhaps they only consider it in terms of the surrounding territory.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by riffraff on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:42AM (#17188013)
I understand the point that we might be too backwards to see the signs of hyper-advanced civilisations, but how is it that _all_ the other civilizations are super advanced to the point that any trace they leave is impossible to understand?

And, won't uncontacted tribes in the amazon have seen airplanes and such?

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by ripsawridge on Thursday May 31, 2018 @03:51PM (#17199563)
Uncontacted tribes in the Amazon are not really uncontacted. They are the way they are by preference.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by RobertoG on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @08:09AM (#17187011)
A main component of the paradox is time, but this paper solve that. Life existed from the beginning, but only now has become complex enough.

So, we don't see or hear artificial signs in other galaxies because light is from the times when there was not complex life in the universe.

Now, we only have to solve why we don't see or hear artificial signs in our galaxy. But the problem is not so perplexing because we are talking about one or two million years.

If, for instance, a big part of the galaxy is bad for complex life (after all, we are far away from the center and that could be relevant), Fermi's paradox is solved.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Tepix on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:23AM (#17187425)
What are the odds that our life is the first that has reached sufficient complexity to be able to communicate within our galaxy? Given that there are 100-400 billion stars (and even more planets) just in the Milky Way: Pretty much zero.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by RobertoG on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @11:47AM (#17188661)
The problem has been always the temporal scales. But if you change that, the odds are not so bad.

If all the civilizations started more or less at the same time that us, it's not so weird that we have not found anybody else. If you add some other factor (maybe civilizations are only possible far from the center, so there is a big spread between them) the probabilities improve.

It also would mean interesting times ahead for humanity.

Of course, all this is only idle speculation.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by CodeCube on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:47AM (#17187574)
I appreciate a good reason to think deeply as much as the next person ... but odds are just that, odds. If we were the result of some freak black swan event that kickstarted "life", the odds of it happening are irrelevant ... because it did.

To be clear, I'm not saying that's what it is ... the fermi paradox is a great thought experiment. But let's just keep things in perspective. Low odds don't mean something won't happen, just like "true random" doesn't mean the same song can't/won't play 10 times in a row ;)

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by emiliobumachar on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:10AM (#17187745)
The troubling thing about the Fermi paradox is that the Great Filter may still be ahead of us.

As in, the universe may be littered with the ruins of single-planet civilizations slightly ahead of our technology level. We may have observed and cataloged many such planets, failing to notice the ruins.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Balgair on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:57AM (#17188163)
Three things:

1)

Ordinary Matter ~10^53 kg (4.9%)

  Dark Matter          ~5*10^53 kg                  26.8%

  Dark Energy          ~1.3*10^54 kg                68.3%

 Undiscovered                ?                        ?

We are only made up of < 1/20th of the universe's matter budget, and at that, most of Ordinary Matter is in stars and black-holes (we think). There's not a lot of matter out there (as a percent) left for life to be made of. As for the majority of the budget? Well, we know dark matter falls down ... that's about it right now (kinda). And Dark Energy? Yeah, it makes things fall up. It's ok, makes no sense to anyone else either. I put 'Undiscovered' there, as it seems we are making discoveries about the universe at a pretty rapid rate these last few centuries, so this budget is likely not even close to the real thing.

Also, people talk a lot about not meeting aliens, but just talking to them. Based on the fact that we have little/no idea how Dark Matter and Energy works, and we only really use radio signals (when funding permits), it may be like trying to whisper at the Queen of England while standing in Norway; a telephone would be much better.

2) Tom Scott on immortality and risk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5a6wrJpxP4

3) Life may be so abundant in the universe that it's not worth talking or meeting up with. What would you say to a single mayfly if you could talk to one on it's level? No scientist or other person has bothered to try, and I think there's a good reason for that.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Symmetry on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:42AM (#17188011)
If you look at probability distributions rather than single estimates for every term in the Drake Equation then the absence of visible aliens isn't so unlikely.

http://www.jodrellbank.manchester.ac.uk/media/eps/jodrell-ba...

And just the existence of life doesn't mean there's complex life. We don't have a firm lower bound on how long life took to arise on Earth after we got liquid water on the surface but it can't have been more than 120 million years. Photosynthesis, mitochondria, and other innovations allowing for complex life like you and me took way, way longer. I made a diagram for a blog post here:

http://hopefullyintersting.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-drake-eq...

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by kamaal on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:13AM (#17186453)
I think a lot of answers have existed for that question.

In the context of this thread, lets say you are a species which stepped out of your planet, there are plenty of asteroids, and even planets lying around you can mine for resources. You settle billions of your kind in space. You are not running out resources and have no motivation beyond research and science to venture out a little far.

Would you, such a race, want to travel interstellar distances? You would travel far distances by organic growth.

Also its likely how old the universe is anybody who didn't kill themselves to extinction, is likely at our phase of development. And is likely asking the same questions as us. Those beyond our phase of development are hiding for a good reason.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by coldtea on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:16AM (#17186469)
Fermi's paradox is just a hand-waving argument involving tons of unknown probabilities.

It's not a given that alien civilizations "should" have developed this or that technology that we ourselves don't have.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by perfmode on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:19AM (#17187410)
it’s a probabilistic argument, so it is inherently about “should”
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:08AM (#17186432)
It's addressed in the article: it takes a long time for complex life to arise, so we are among - or the - first.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by m_mueller on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:11AM (#17186445)
That's the optimistic interpretation. Pessimistic: There's one or more great filters.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:20AM (#17186745)
No. Assuming this specific paper's thesis, that is the conclusion. There exist other arguments not based on this specific paper's thesis.

Of those, I find plausible the observation that as we tame the world to suit us, we shrink. Cities, civilization, supermarkets, products, TV, internet. By this trend, we'll live in dream terranes before long. (BTW as people get richer, reproduction gets less).

But we'll need power, and eventually a dyson sphere to capture all the sun's light - perfect for an inward-looking, closed-off people! Then what, I'm not sure. Perhaps long before that, we won't need other suns; we'll have artificial suns (controlled fusion).

That's what happens to everyone else: as they grow in technological sophistication, they get better and better at directly meeting their own (previously evolved) needs.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by ekianjo on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:10AM (#17187368)
any evidence to support that extraordinary claim?
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by sunstone on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:37PM (#17189152)
We are a baby civilization. Everyone is waiting for us to grow up.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Sir_Cmpwn on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:25AM (#17187887)
Never forget to include the Bs term when considering the Drake equation: https://www.xkcd.com/384/
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Aaargh20318 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:26AM (#17186501)
Personally I think the answer is anti-natalism. Once life gets more intelligent it takes a relatively short time (compared to the age of the universe) to get to the point where they realise it's unethical to create new life and choose to go extinct.

As a result, intelligent life around the universe only exists as short 'blips', being around for too short a time to ever meet other species.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by throwaway7312 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:40AM (#17186850)
It sounds more like anti-natalism is your personal philosophy, and you make the same assumption the holders of most philosophical, ideological, and religious positions make: sooner or later, everyone else will realize to be true what I realize is true.

The history of man suggests otherwise. The more our civilization progresses, and the more the population swells, the broader the array of philosophical positions those within the civilization tend to hold. We have no evidence for everyone eventually coalescing around one 'right' belief set.

History is also littered with non-reproductive sects, like the Essenes, aesthetics, or, today's answer to these, anti-natalists and child-free individuals. These groups don't tend to be very good at passing their belief systems on to new generations however, as one might expect, and they don't tend to last particularly long once they've emerged on the civilization scene.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by nickwalton00 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:40AM (#17188001)
Very true. It's very hard for people who don't make children to not just get replaced with people with different beliefs.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by pavlov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:29AM (#17186795)
The default for unintelligent life is to survive at all cost and fill every niche. You're suggesting that intelligence flips that purpose so that every sentient species eventually becomes depressed suicidal existentialists?
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Thursday May 31, 2018 @08:27AM (#17195761)
I'd put it even stronger, especially in this context where we contemplate radically simpler origins of life, that mightn't be "alive" by standard definitions (like viruses), and yet are steps along the way to sufficient complexity to be "alive": that life (in this context) is reproduction.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Brockenstein on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:01AM (#17187312)
All at the same time, united in a single goal...

Seeing the wide spectrum of intelligence and education that humans manage it's hard for me to believe we'll ever reach a point of uniformity as a species were something like self-imposed extinction would be plausible.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Aaargh20318 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:27AM (#17187449)
Not depressed or suicidal, just realising they have no right to gamble with another human being's life.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by whatshisface on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:26AM (#17187894)
An honestly held belief that their child would have a miserable, depressed, ill life I could understand - especially because those traits can be heritable. I can also understand sour grapes. However the other arguments seem very ill-motivated.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by Aaargh20318 on Friday June 01, 2018 @05:25AM (#17203810)
> An honestly held belief that their child would have a miserable, depressed, ill life I could understand

There's always a risk of that, unless you can 100% guarantee this won't happen you're basically gambling with another person's life. I don't think you have the right to do that.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by maaark on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:23AM (#17186759)
>it's unethical to create new life and choose to go extinct.

I don't get this. What use are ethics when everyones dead and gone?

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by maxerickson on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:32AM (#17187934)
I wonder if scientists in the future will ponder how microchips were invented before the steam engine.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by ASalazarMX on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @11:43AM (#17188622)
"Aliens gave it to them". This puts panspermia in a new light, thank you.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by DoctorOetker on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:39AM (#17186334)
you mean well before the big bang: e^(a*t) = 0 for t=-infinity
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:11AM (#17186446)
well yes; technically they use one base-pair as the origin of life (which is probably still a little too small).

From looking at the graph, and the 300 milion year doubling, they seem to put life complexity at about 256 base-pairs at the origin of the earth.

There should be a link to the actual paper in the article.

Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by whatshisface on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:32AM (#17187932)
That goes below a discontinuity, 256 base pairs is well below the smallest organism ever observed. A single gene is on average around 10^4 bases, and the simplest organisms have around 10^3 necessary genes. Life below 10^3 base pairs may not evolve at the same speed. It's certainly not safe to talk about it in terms of base pairs, in that era there might not have even been any.
Re:Space Is Full of Planets, and Most of Them Don't Even Hav... by hyperpallium on Thursday May 31, 2018 @02:03AM (#17194275)
> smallest organism ever observed

...today. Life was simpler back in the day. For example, RNA world. This more primitive life might not survive more sophisticated life. (thougn it's also possible it's still around, but we haven't noticed it; or haven't recognized it as life).

IDK if small enough, but viruses are simpler.

If it can reproduce - e.g. a short strand of DNA or RNA or even something simpler - it could form the beginnings of "life" as a precursor, even though it wouldn't meet our current definitions of "alive".

There's theories of fatty spheres being the first "cells" (really, "kinda sorta cells").