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Re:The Silence of the Bugs by spodek on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:04AM (#17166557)
What does it take for people to see that for all the problems technology and markets have solved, they have unintended side-effects that, after enough time, can become global problems?

Pesticides and population growth expanding into more and more territory helped a lot of human problems in the past, but created new problems. Expanding into new territory escaped problems of poisoning, desertifying, or overfilling the land . . . until we populated the whole planet and the environment reached toxic levels of pollution.

You might say the environment isn't yet toxic to us (though some places are), but it appears so for some essential symbiotic life. If experts in the field don't know what's happening, then people who estimate carrying capacities for the planet don't either, raising the error bars downward for their estimation.

Systems perspectives predict outcomes like this and suggest systemic solutions, not technology or market solutions alone (though they are important), which are likely exacerbating them. A key leverage point I see are they system's beliefs and goals. They're hard to change, but such changes have happened before.

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by cfadvan on Sunday May 27, 2018 @09:50AM (#17166871)
What does it take for people to see that for all the problems technology and markets have solved, they have unintended side-effects that, after enough time, can become global problems?

Pain. Pain on the personally detectable level, and someone they trust to explain to them why they’re hurting. As it stands now few people feel that pain, and if they do, there are legions of smug pricks telling them tall tales about the cause. If the Arab “Spring” and subsequent crises had been clearly and accurately framed as an environmental issue first, people would be freaking out. Instead it’s gotten every kind of spin short of the reality of drought leading to skyrocketing food costs in depressed economies.

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by joe_the_user on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:22PM (#17167937)
What does it take for people to see that for all the problems technology and markets have solved, they have unintended side-effects that, after enough time, can become global problems?

It is fairly easy to see this and some portion of people see it immediately. Unfortunately, another who profit from these things ask "what does it take for people not to see and stop these things?" and the answer is fairly visible in the way global warming has been [not] addressed.

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by closeparen on Sunday May 27, 2018 @06:14PM (#17169385)
>technology and markets

While I agree in general, in this particular case, technology and markets today are trying to get more people onto less land and in arrangements that require less energy. Current public policy is holding it back.

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by quadrangle on Sunday May 27, 2018 @06:32PM (#17169464)
Put the blame where it belongs. Public policy is being held back by powerful interests who profit from the status quo.
Re:The Silence of the Bugs by closeparen on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:41PM (#17169793)
“Powerful interests” in this case is grassroots community organizers protecting their homes from unwanted change by pushing back against global capital.
Re:The Silence of the Bugs by quadrangle on Monday May 28, 2018 @11:47PM (#17176323)
While there's definitely a status-quo bias among myopic community folks, there's also totally deserved distrust of global capital. Global capital does not have the public interest as top priority and certainly isn't focused on sustainability and decades-long time-scales.

Global capital is overall profit-prioritizing, externalizes tons of costs, invests massively in lobbying governments for their interests, and focuses on relatively short-term growth figures.

It sounds like you are suggesting that if only grassroots push-back would go away, global capital is generally solving ecological problems. I hope that completely backwards view isn't what you're actually suggesting.

Maybe you are talking about knee-jerk anti-density, anti-development stuff? While that NIMBYism is a real problem, and there are real developers working in the right direction, we still have far more global capital and power behind fossil-fuel companies and pesticide manufacturers etc. than behind sustainable-development tech. Despite all the push for electric vehicles, car companies are pushing way-oversized usually-single-occupant vehicles (SUV's and pickup-trucks-that-people-use-just-for-commuting and such) as much as ever, and lobby for all the unsustainable public infrastructure for them…

At any rate, the org doing the best at combating both the unsustainable and corrupt capital growth-focused nonsense and the counter-productive NIMBYism is https://www.strongtowns.org (not sure what the best equivalent is for issues around pesticides and healthy biodiversity).

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by closeparen on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @03:56AM (#17177212)
>global capital is generally solving ecological problems

Global capital is generally responding to consumer preferences, which in the context of housing means high-density structures in walkable and transit-connected areas, which are specifically good. Consumers also have lots of un-ecological preferences, like large vehicles, cheap meat, etc. which are not.

>unsustainable public infrastructure

Car infrastructure is problematic in many ways, but "unsustainable" is the wrong word. We're sustaining it just fine, unlike its alternatives. Empirically, our most important transit systems are incapable of maintaining previously-achieved levels of service for any amount of money, and the costs of implementing new service are escalating for reasons we don't understand such that even minor subway buildout is becoming an existential challenge to the resources of our richest and fastest-growing cities. Give it 30 years, and it's not clear that the collective productivity of all humanity will exceed the cost of a mile of New York City subway track. That's unsustainable. The environmental-friendliness axis is orthogonal.

Re:The Silence of the Bugs by specialist on Monday May 28, 2018 @01:19PM (#17173563)
Neil Postman's Technopoly was my first intro to these ideas.