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Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jacquesm on Friday May 25, 2018 @03:38PM (#17157150)
> Is the EU going to target American banks of American businesses and try to extract fines?

You mean like America? That time when the USA decided to enforce their embargo against Cuba by intercepting a payment from one of the Nordics for a bunch of Cuban cigars? No, that's unlikely.

> Is the EU going to extradite owners of these businesses?

Extremely unlikely, besides that would require the cooperation of the other country. But - and this is interesting - the other countries typically expect the EU to cooperate with extraditions when the law is broken and we do. So who knows.

> Are EU courts going to issue default judgements on businesses and individuals?

Against individuals: Unlikely, but it could happen, against businesses, that's typically how things go when one party doesn't show up.

But note that for that to happen you first have to ignore the regulators for long enough to get them really pissed off, an action I would recommend against.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by davesque on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:22PM (#17157568)
> You mean like America?

Ahh yes, one of my favorite logical fallacies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by speakeron on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:31PM (#17157669)
Tu quoque is not a logical fallacy. There's no logical step that's violated. It's an informal fallacy.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by davesque on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:51PM (#17157853)
Technically, yes. It's an informal logical fallacy. The point is that it's a pretty ineffective means of advancing the discussion.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by hueving on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:55PM (#17157897)
Right FTA: it's an "informal logical fallacy.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by orwin on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:32PM (#17157675)
But since the answer is no, is this still a fallacy?
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by CapacitorSet on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:42PM (#17157766)
It's not being used as a fallacy, since it's not part of an argument that proves a point.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by davesque on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:54PM (#17157884)
I don't follow you. My interpretation was that OP said roughly, "I don't understand/approve of GDPR because of this and this." Child then responded by saying roughly, "but America does it too." Seems like the child was trying to imply that OP's claims/concerns are false because they are hypocritical.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by orwin on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:03PM (#17157966)
Not really, he said in substance: "America do this, EU will not". Using this example to somehow gain a moral high ground.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jacquesm on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:08PM (#17157993)
The intended effect was to provide some context and to take away a worry. I can see why Americans would be worried because there are many examples of where America has 'exported' its laws all over the globe. The EU is emphatically not doing this, they simply require that if you do business in Europe that you have a European presence so they can enforce their local laws against you.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by ewjordan on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:32PM (#17158182)
That "European presence" requirement is, by itself, an attempt to force their laws on the world, and if it's going to have teeth, will require other countries to bow to pressure to enforce it even though they had no input.

If Jamaica passed a law fining any company that hired homosexuals, we'd consider it bullshit even if they tried to abstract it a level up by only passing it as a local law, and then passing another law saying companies that serve Jamaicans have to have local representatives. I'm not sure why you think this is any less bullshitty a tactic, other than the fact that the law they're trying to push seems more reasonable (which I agree with).

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by zdkl on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:40PM (#17158250)
So you're saying F. local laws that get in the way of international commerce? You could stop doing business with Jamaica, and hence put pressure on it's elected bodies.

If you don't like foreign markets, don't enter them.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by watwut on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:13PM (#17158035)
I think that child was saying that since America does that routinelly, Europe is entitled to do it too. Alternatively, may do it for strategical power reasons.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by seanmcdirmid on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:34PM (#17158207)
That makes me wonder: what about wechat? Surely Tencent has many overseas Chinese users in Europe, and I’m sure they play as or more aggressively as the American majors. Is Europe going to sanction Chinese companies for violations along with American ones?
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by NeutronStar on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:40PM (#17158251)
Facebook is legally an Ireland company FYI.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by seanmcdirmid on Friday May 25, 2018 @06:23PM (#17158560)
Facebook is most definitely American even if their European subsidiary is based in Ireland. That is all moot under the law anyways, as they consider global revenue of any parent company, not just that of the subsidiary.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by nostromo on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:10PM (#17157452)
> You mean like America?

Yes, like America. This may shock you, but America isn't always right.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by fao_ on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:16PM (#17157505)
> Yes, like America. This may shock you, but America isn't always right.

That was exactly your parent's point?

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by hueving on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:52PM (#17157866)
So whataboutism is a valid justification to continue the practice?
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by __s on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:30PM (#17158170)
They're arguing that US companies are afraid of the EU behaving like the US, & then asserting that the EU will not behave like the US
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jessaustin on Friday May 25, 2018 @06:04PM (#17158388)
It's always wrong to be the first in the thread to invoke "whataboutism".
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by HumanDrivenDev on Friday May 25, 2018 @06:28PM (#17158606)
Exactly. It's possible to criticise what the EU are doing without thinking the United States does everything right - or even that it does it better.

Disappointing to see so many EU apologists defaulting to whataboutism.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jbfoo on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:29PM (#17157651)
>> Are EU courts going to issue default judgements on businesses and individuals?

> Against individuals: Unlikely, but it could happen

AFAIK IANAL: GDPR doesn't apply to individuals that e.g. host mastodon instance.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by ldjb on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:46PM (#17157808)
It's true that the GDPR has exemptions for "personal or household activity". Ideally, this should apply to non-commercial Mastodon instances.

However, some non-commercial Mastodon instances are now supporting thousands of users. An argument could be made that operating such instances is no longer a "personal or household activity".

Whilst I would hope that the local data protection agency would side with the Mastodon instance operator, it does put them in a rather difficult situation.

I think this possibility raises a lot of concern for operators of Mastodon instances and other online services.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jacquesm on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:36PM (#17157717)
Agreed, but execs of companies violating the law are also individuals, and those were the individuals I had in mind.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by weinzierl on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:59PM (#17157929)
> GDPR doesn't apply to individuals

>> Agreed

Not a lawyer too, but I'm interested what makes you (and jbfoo) believe that it doesn't apply to individuals. It's a EU regulation it should apply to natural and legal persons.

Ok, it has an exception for the processing of data by natural persons in the course of a purely personal or household activity but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to individuals in general.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jacquesm on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:04PM (#17157971)
> Ok, it has an exception for the processing of data by natural persons in the course of a purely personal or household activity but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to individuals in general.

If you set up a service that operates in the same way as a similar service would operate if it were done by a business then I suspect that you being a private individual is not going to be much protection, after all you are effectively roughly in the same situation as a sole proprietor business minus the incorporation.

If you process data for family and friends then that would most likely be enough to trigger the exception.

So the dividing line in the case of a Mastodon server would likely be whether or not you allow total strangers to make use of the service and whether or not you respect their rights.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by guelo on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:10PM (#17158009)
> You mean like America?

I get the impression that a big part of the motivation for GDPR is this type of resentment against America.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by dlisboa on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:29PM (#17158160)
The companies that are most guilty of mishandling personal user data are American companies. If it could not apply to them in protection of EU citizens any regulation would be useless.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by chernobogdan on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:54PM (#17158330)
Thats because the EU has no tech giants.

If Facebook was german there's no way that GDPR would of passed.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by emodendroket on Friday May 25, 2018 @03:52PM (#17157283)
There are plenty more examples of the US twisting Europe's arm. Currently it's looking like that is the plan for Iran.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by s2g on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:50PM (#17157845)
I hope not. They really need to tell the US to go to hell on that front. Pissing away a deal that is seemingly working because Trump got made fun of by Obama.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by emodendroket on Friday May 25, 2018 @06:09PM (#17158429)
The US has all the leverage. They can just say "you can trade with Iran or you could trade with us," and what is the EU going to do? I'm not happy about the Iran deal being torn up either, but there is nothing European leaders can do about it.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by s2g on Friday May 25, 2018 @07:19PM (#17158964)
Call a rather obvious bluff and put political pressure on American leaders over it.

They have a pretty easy to defend position.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by emodendroket on Friday May 25, 2018 @08:40PM (#17159376)
It's not really a bluff; they can cut off any European business that deals with Iran easily. Someone else will play ball. This wouldn't be the first time they did it either.
Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by mschuster91 on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:35PM (#17158219)
> They really need to tell the US to go to hell on that front.

Would be easier if Europe had a coherent voice. You got the former Eastern Bloc countries desperately clinging to the US (because they, rightfully, fear that Putin will screw them over), you got the UK which is trying to not fall apart due to Brexit, France is... France and Merkel is trying to prevent the worst of the shitshow, even though she's miserably failing at that (and under heavy pressure from the AfD nazis and her own sister party which is openly copying the nazis).

In addition, Europe is so damn far behind the US when it comes to military power - jeez, German army is practicing tank shooters with broomsticks as munition, the NH90 marine helicopters are not allowed to fly over water and we all know what a fuckfest the A400M is. No money, no competence, but it wasn't a problem since WW2 as the USA had always covered the EU... now that Trump is, well, being Trump the EU has yet another giant problem to tackle.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by Doctor_Fegg on Friday May 25, 2018 @06:05PM (#17158408)
> Europe is so damn far behind the US when it comes to military power

As a European, I consider this a good thing.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by mschuster91 on Saturday May 26, 2018 @03:08PM (#17163744)
> As a European, I consider this a good thing.

I am ideologically more aligned to pacifism, the problem is that it does not work in a world of wannabe highschool bullies (USA, China, Russia, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Qatar) vying for regional dominance.

Europe is so damn powerless and underfunded that we cannot even ensure that basic human rights are respected in conflict areas. On a bully stage, the tiny kid will always be the one that's bullied. No matter how economically powerful the EU is.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by s2g on Friday May 25, 2018 @07:20PM (#17158971)
As a Canadian I'm fine with my country being behind too.

Would like more spending to make sure soldiers don't die due to shitty equipment, but still largely fine.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by falcon620 on Friday May 25, 2018 @03:57PM (#17157319)
Jacques - I love the effort you've put into explaining the GDPR to clueless and needlessly exasperated (mostly) americans here on HN.

To be honest I used to think you were just a shameless self-promoter like almost everyone else, but in this case you've risen to the occasion. Bravo. I think you're now rating quite high in most people's "mental books of good people". Or at the very least, in the minds of people who actually have a strong impact.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by hueving on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:54PM (#17157885)
>clueless and needlessly exasperated (mostly) americans

I'd love to see the dataset you have access to backing up any of that statement. It must be fascinating.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by jacquesm on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:06PM (#17157983)
> I'd love to see the dataset you have access to backing up any of that statement.

That would make you a sub-processor.

Re:GDPR for lazy people: Block all European users with Cloud... by falcon620 on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:33PM (#17158188)
Hehe.