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Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:07PM (#17148420)
Anecdote time... Tokyo train stations kinda suck.

Coming from a few weeks in Malaysia and Singapore, it was interesting to see just how little and how poorly translated English is there. (They speak Japanese and not English, but lets be honest about it being the lingua franca)

It was VERY DIFFICULT to figure out how their train colors worked, how Orange gets to Blue (it's a connect, but a couple blocks away). That Ginza station (iirc, might be wrong) has at least two names.

Also, that none of the machines take cards! We were 11 yen short - about $0.10 for a ticket to the airport, and while the very nice workers were happy to explain where a few blocks away the ATM was, it would have been great if someone just threw a coin at us to get us to go away, different culture, I suppose had I asked someone would have given it to us, but I feel like in the USA it would have just been offered.

Japan was a lot like NYC, the subway there is also more confusing than places like DC or Taipei.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by kalleboo on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:22PM (#17148530)
I'm visiting London right now, and compared to here, Tokyo train stations are amazing for signage. There are always super clear, easy to spot signage for where transfers & exits are, what exits they are and what landmarks they lead to, where elevators or escalators are, etc. Electric signs starting at the entrances (before the gates even) for what trains are arriving at what platforms and when.

In London navigational signs are either completely missing or white signs on white tile backdrops so they blend in and are hard to spot (aside from the generic "Way Out" exit signs that don't specify out to where, will I have an escalator/elevator, etc). Electric signs are sparse (maybe one after the gates and one or two only at the ends of the platform)

Tokyo is complicated by the fact that it's actually 10+ different systems run by different, mostly private, companies (JR trains like Yamanote, Tokyo Metro trains, keio, toei, keikyu, keisei, yurikamome, etc etc) so I'm always impressed by how integrated they manage to make it seem.

It sucks that Japan is mostly a cash society, but Apple Pay Suica on iPhone 8 and up helps a lot :)

Singapore does have an amazing subway though, completely world-class.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by MarkSweep on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:13PM (#17150130)
The multitude of train companies is further complicated that some companies have through service on each other tracks. Do you will be waiting on a Toei Asakusa Line plateform when a train from the KeiKyuu company shows up. The map inside the train does not have the station you just departed from on it much lest your destination. Good luck!

I enjoy figuring out how their system works so it does not bother me. But I tell people who go there for the first time to stick with JR and maybe Tokyo Metro, as the lines a tourist would typically use have simple schedules and all the stops are color-coded and numbered.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by kara_jade on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:13PM (#17150351)
Usually HyperDia covers these cases with different companies using the same tracks. It never has misdirected me so far.

http://www.hyperdia.com/en

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by CaptainZapp on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:21AM (#17151607)
I think the navigation system, which is company independent, is fantastic.

For those that have never been to Japan and using Tokyo Metro as an example:

Every metro line has a name and a color. For example: The Asakusa line (A) has a reddish color. The A designation is only used by the Asakusa line and each station has a number.

Higashi-Ginza is A11. It's also H09, because it's also a station for the (gray) Hybia line.

The system is extended to other operators. All Yamanote line stations are JYn, where n signifies the station number.

That (and a Pasmo or Suica smart card, which lets you switch systems seemlessly) makes navigation, even in the Tokyo transit system, which is arguably the most complex in the world, very easy and intuitive.

The same system is applied in every other Japanese city I've visted, alas the system is usually much simpler.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by bigger_cheese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:42PM (#17149752)
I agree I thought subway in Singapore was amazing last time I visited. What I really liked was the way the carriage always stopped at the same fixed point on platform and they had designated areas for people to stand when embarking. It made the whole process of getting on and off the train much more organised.

Here in Australia trains are no where near that disciplined about where on platform they stop. Carriage doors can be anywhere so basically as soon as train pulls into station everyone on platform surges towards nearest door.

I was in London in January I found the underground there very confusing. I was doing the typical tourist sight seeing thing and was trying to get from Tower of London to the British Museum I knew the stations were on different lines I knew I had to get to the Piccadilly line but there was a lack of detail as to where to change trains. There were voice announcements on trains themselves "Change here for xxx line" but signage was pretty poor.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:37PM (#17150226)
Singapore was great for subway. As to the stops at a particular spot, lots of the Asian trains do that, USA and others not so much, we noticed it too.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by jessaustin on Thursday May 24, 2018 @07:02PM (#17149286)
It sucks that Japan is mostly a cash society...

There are a range of opinions on this topic. I vastly prefer cash no matter what nation I'm in, and am extremely annoyed when it's not a possibility. Japan and its cash just works. Most situations in other nations that do not admit cash pretend that they function acceptably, but we don't have to look hard to see cracks in the facade.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:39PM (#17150238)
No thanks. I did not find it convienient having US, Malaysian, Singapore, and Japanese coins in my pocket. I like having a single card that has an always current exchange rate with no fees, and in fact pays back 1.5%.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:44PM (#17149158)
I have some sympathy with this comment (although like other commenters I don't quite agree). I think some of this disconnect is cultural (or what you're used to). The most important thing to understand about Japanese trains is that there a many train companies. If you don't realise that, then you can easily get confused about the need to go to a completely different building across the road to get a transfer. Many stylised maps don't make it clear and I've been confused before. I'm guessing that the blue in your example is the Keisei line.

As for cards, Japan is still very much a cash based culture. Although you can use credit cards in most places now, if you had come 10 or 15 years ago you might have been astounded that you practically could not survive without carrying cash. Even now, if you go out to where I live (in the countryside), I don't think there is a single store that accepts credit cards. It used to be that the ATMs were only open during banking hours (what's the point in an ATM if it's only open when there is a teller available? ;-) ). I got into the habit of that time of carrying about $1000 all the time. Hell, the gas man would pass me on the street randomly, hand me my bill and expect that I would pay him on the spot. Different culture :-)

Anyway, I hope your trip was enjoyable otherwise. One more quick tip: If you come again and end up in a station without romaji train maps, you can corner one of the station attendants and they will find a way to help you somehow (also probably won't speak English, but I've seen them being very inventive).

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by timr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:55PM (#17149239)
"Hell, the gas man would pass me on the street randomly, hand me my bill and expect that I would pay him on the spot. Different culture :-)"

That's weird. I mean, Japan is still cash-centric, but at least you can take your pile of cash to the combini to pay the utility bill. :-D

Was it one of those kerosene guys in the little muscial trucks?

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:47PM (#17150019)
No. Normal gas company. But my gas company at the time was a super small one (just the local area), so I think they didn't have a sophisticated billing system. I'm with the regional gas company now and it's normal billing system.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by nlawalker on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:27PM (#17149051)
Just another anecdote alongside the others. Maybe I got lucky but I found the amount of written and spoken English in Japan, especially in the metropolitan areas, to be perfectly adequate.

As for actually getting around, it's just a matter of having the right tools. I'm mostly sharing this for the benefit of anyone thinking of going to Japan.

- The landscape of transit cards is confusing, and while many of them are still accepted in various places, the existence of such a wide variety is mostly a legacy thing as far as I could tell. I had a Suica card and it worked virtually everywhere I went in Japan, though I didn't venture off the beaten path.

- The Japan Rail Pass, while not having any functional use, did make things cheaper.

- A rented wifi hotspot is an absolute no-brainer. If you travel to Japan, just get one. You can pick it up at the post office in the airport and drop it back at the same place in a prepaid envelope when you depart.

- The Hyperdia smartphone app is fantasic. You can pretty much get yourself between any two points in Japan with it, and once you've used it a couple times and understand some of the icons it's easy to tell when you need a separate pass or need to walk between platforms or nearby stations.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:05PM (#17149585)
> The Japan Rail Pass, while not having any functional use, did make things cheaper

Just a quick comment for anyone planning to come to Japan. If you are going to stay in Tokyo, then the Japan Rail Pass is probably not worth it (it only gives you a free pass on JR rail). But if you are going anywhere else, you absolutely should get this. Especially on the Shinkansen, you get free reserved seat tickets. Also, the system is set up for this. You go into line to get your tickets and you will magically find that the person who is dealing with you can speak English (because they can see your pass when you are in line and insert an English speaking person discretely into the correct cubicle).

Also, if you ever get into trouble, waving the JR rail pass is like a get out of jail free card. They bend over backwards for pass holders. If you get on the wrong train, they'll just change the tickets. If you miss the last Shinkansen, they will discretely push you onto a full reservation only express train.

Finally, if you want to go anywhere of any distance, the cost reduction will definitely by huge. Trains (especially the Shinkansen) in Japan are expensive. Just going out to Osaka from Tokyo and back will basically pay for a 1 week pass. If you want to go out west or up north then you'll be saving upwards of $1K.

I live in Japan, but about 5 years ago I went to the UK for a couple of years. I needed to go back to Canada for my visa and ended up bouncing around between Canada and Japan, leaving me as a tourist in Japan for 1 month. I absolutely could not believe how great the JR Rail pass was. I went all the way up to Sapporo, which is probably the last time I will ever be able to afford something like that.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by CaptainZapp on Friday May 25, 2018 @04:37AM (#17151689)
Absolutely that!

Another example: Travelling from Tokyo to Sapporo return (the part from Hakodate to Sapporo is not covered by Shinkansen, but should be from 2030, but I digress) is more expensive than a three week train pass.

If you're not strapped for cash get a pass for the green car (first class). The price difference is minimal (ca. 60K Yen vs. 80K Yen for three weeks) and it makes travelling even more amazing.

I'd say my savings where > 2K $ last time in Japan with the rail pass.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Friday May 25, 2018 @08:13AM (#17152794)
I didn't even know there was a green car pass. That's insane! Even if you are travelling in Obon or Golden Week that will absolutely guarantee that you can travel anywhere you want to go whenever you want. I've only travelled in green car once. I'm a bit of a train nerd, but I'm also cheap so I'm always jealous! Some day I will absolutely travel on the Nozomi Shinkansen, no matter what it costs :-)
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by CaptainZapp on Friday May 25, 2018 @09:29AM (#17153475)
"Even if you are travelling in Obon or Golden Week that will absolutely guarantee that you can travel anywhere you want to go whenever you want."

On the Sunday at the end of golden week all Shinkansen from Hokkaido to Tokyo, with the exception of the first two trains, were completely sold out. That was two weeks in advance.

So being forced to take an early train I had to spend a night in Hokadate, which was actually quite nice in its own right. And on JR pass level I think the price difference between normal and green class is so low that it's definitly worth it.

In Switzerland first class is second class + 100 - 150%.

But generally it's true that a green car pass will get you a reservation even when all else is sold out.

"Some day I will absolutely travel on the Nozomi Shinkansen, no matter what it costs :-)"

Actually the cost is the same like for all other Shinkansens :-) The only thing is you can't use them with the rail pass.

That said my maximum wait for an eligable train upon spontaneously deciding I need a train ride was 30 minutes. But is was usually more in the 10 minute range.

Oh, and in order to totally shame some high level JR bureaucrat I have photographic evidence about not one, but two Shinkansens with a delay of 5 minutes.

Seppuku is probably the only option here.

:-)

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:32AM (#17187481)
Ha ha! Unfortunately the Nozomi doesn't stop in Shizuoka, so there is a minimum fee for me to ride it :-) I actually thought it was more expensive, so I'm happy to hear it isn't.

And, yeah, this year has been hopeless for the Shinkansen record. I'll be interested to see how they report it...

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by twblalock on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:44PM (#17149163)
> - The landscape of transit cards is confusing, and while many of them are still accepted in various places, the existence of such a wide variety is mostly a legacy thing as far as I could tell. I had a Suica card and it worked virtually everywhere I went in Japan, though I didn't venture off the beaten path.

I think this is correct. I first went to Japan in 2008, and the cards you had actually mattered. I went again last year, and I used a Suica all over the country without problems -- it was a Suica I bought in 2008, and it still worked and had money on it after sitting in a drawer for 9 years.

It seems like all of these cards equivalent now, at least for tourists -- for people who live there, I think there are some differences in the kinds of monthly passes you can get for each card.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by zeeZ on Friday May 25, 2018 @05:08AM (#17151817)
You got close there. Suica (and the Icoca I have, don't know about others) are valid for 10 years after last use. This seems like a ridiculously huge amount of time to me.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mikekchar on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:10PM (#17149603)
You can use Suica almost everywhere. The reverse is not true. For example, I live in the Tokai region and have a Toica. I can't use it outside of Tokai. I think eventually these things will even out, though. I was surprised that a Passmo card I got in Tokyo and accidentally used in Tokai worked.

But the golden rule in Japan -- make sure to carry enough cash in case you get into trouble :-)

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by rangibaby on Friday May 25, 2018 @09:02AM (#17153223)
Suica, Toica, etc. should work in each other’s areas now. There is a list here: http://jreast.okbiz.okwave.jp/sp/default/faq/question/show/1...
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by paulific on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:41PM (#17149142)
The variety in transit cards is mostly due to the variety of operators who use different systems. Japan Rail has Suica, Tokyo Subway lines use Passmo. Some regional operators have their own ones. As you say you can mostly use them interchangeably, probably because it is less trouble for everybody that way.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by ng12 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:16PM (#17148497)
> They speak Japanese and not English, but lets be honest about it being the lingua franca

If you go to Seoul they don't even have Romanized names for the train stations. Everything's in Hangul. For a massive system built primarily for Japanese speakers it's really pretty accessible.

> Japan was a lot like NYC, the subway there is also more confusing than places like DC or Taipei.

I mean, DC and Taipei are much smaller systems than NYC and (especially) Tokyo. There's also geographical concerns -- Tokyo is just huge and NYC is very oddly shaped. DC, Taipei, Boston, Chicago, etc are very radial which makes them easy to figure out.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by SECProto on Friday May 25, 2018 @12:24AM (#17150605)
> If you go to Seoul they don't even have Romanized names for the train stations. Everything's in Hangul. For a massive system built primarily for Japanese speakers it's really pretty accessible.

I'm not sure when you were last in Seoul, but this was not the case when I was there recently. Perhaps they worked on it for the Olympics? Most signs (and I think every navigational sign) I saw in the metro stations was quadrilingual - Hangul, English, Chinese, and Japanese. The station names themselves were written in Hangul and English (not sure about Japanese/Chinese characters). I tried to find any news articles or background about this but I couldn't.

I have much more difficulty navigating the metro in Tokyo than I did in Seoul, and I can read a good bit of Japanese and no Korean.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by ajdlinux on Friday May 25, 2018 @02:14AM (#17151060)
Certainly was not the case when I was in Seoul in 2014 - even PA announcements on the train were in English.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by azernik on Thursday May 24, 2018 @07:13PM (#17149330)
In addition, in a country as big and insular (literally and figuratively) as Japan, catering to foreigners is less of a concern.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by thousandautumns on Friday May 25, 2018 @08:47AM (#17153114)
Except they absolutely cater to foreigners. Even living in the countryside of Hokkaido, all of the train stations had everything in Japanese and English.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by bamboozled on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:13PM (#17148476)
I found it very easy and each time I’ve asked for assistance I’ve received it. The stations are always manned with several staff so help is always available.

On the Tokyo subway all trains and maps, signage and in cabin screens provide English labelling. What more do you need ?

Edit: I have to add, the fact the trains a almost perfectly ontime, with little wait between services, always designed to meet capacity, are In great condition and spotless, I really don’t see how it “sucks”. In fact what more do you want out of a Subway?

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by dahdum on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:53PM (#17149232)
There's a small learning curve but they do a great job on signage and maps.

I kinda feel bad asking for assistance in Japan. Most of the times I needed help they went way beyond my expectations to assist.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by rpearl on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:49PM (#17148775)
I really had no trouble navigating Tokyo stations and I don't speak a word of Japanese besides すみません (excuse me/sorry to bother), so I'm quite surprised to see this comment!

Google maps and other transit apps are really good in Tokyo, paying with suica/pasmo makes things quite smooth--just keep it topped up habitually when you go to a convenience store--and I didn't really have the trouble you seem to have had with color/line navigation... I was definitely a bit flustered by the busy-ness but never really had a problem getting on the correct platform.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by GordonS on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:57PM (#17148834)
Not only do I not speak any Japanese, but I'm colour blind, and don't have any kind of subway or metro at home - and I had no issue navigating around Tokyo or Kyoto stations. And in Tokyo, on multiple occasions there was even an excessively helpful English-speaking Japanese stewardess that insisted on helping us from A to B.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by Fins on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:47PM (#17149191)
Same here (well, I can manage a few basic phrases in Japanese, but that's about it). Navigating Japan's rail system was very easy. Well, unless you enter turnstiles at the station and then try to exit right from the same station, that seems to confuse SUICA a lot and you have to go through the manual lane...
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by ajdlinux on Friday May 25, 2018 @02:17AM (#17151072)
Last time I was in Japan (a couple of months ago) I learned that at some stations they actually sell a station-access-only ticket (~JPY200 for a few hours IIRC) for people who want to go in to meet someone or to use the shops.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by Fins on Friday May 25, 2018 @02:35PM (#17156637)
Ah, nice. Might be something new, unless I missed in 2 years ago when I was there last time.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by ajdlinux on Friday May 25, 2018 @11:10PM (#17159969)
Oh, if you use a Suica card the system still gets confused. So they haven't really fixed your problem. Also, the notion of paying for access purely to a rail platform was super foreign to me...
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by Fins on Saturday May 26, 2018 @01:28AM (#17160391)
I guess that's how they can keep the place reasonably clear and moving along.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by jlg23 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:05PM (#17148898)
I have never been to Japan myself but those of my friends who were all had nothing but praise for the train system.

WRT the lack of English: In most parts of of South America you won't find anyone who speaks English. Same for North Africa. One can be annoyed or just see the humourous aspects and put the car into the "car parking park" (seen in Morocco) before having a "vegetarian in bread" (seen in Berlin). ;)

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by contingencies on Thursday May 24, 2018 @07:58PM (#17149557)
A friend and I found ourselves stranded in rural Japan when the train system shut down for days due to high winds. Seems to me lots of foreigners tend to visit big cities and tourist centers only then walk away wowed, frankly the infrastructure is more heterogeneous than this set realise.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by mercurysmessage on Friday May 25, 2018 @10:13AM (#17153878)
The signage is quite good, and if you know the names of one or two lines it is quite simple. Also, get a sim, and just type your destinations into google, maps will do it for you.
Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by angelsl on Friday May 25, 2018 @07:10AM (#17152414)
You can't really compare to Singapore.

English is our primary language.

Re:The Psychology of Japanese Train Stations by SlowRobotAhead on Friday May 25, 2018 @11:17AM (#17154492)
It had nothing to do with the language, the subway system was laid out logically in SG. Not like NYC or Tokyo. I appreciated the English language though, made the trip very easy. I don’t like the surveillance aspects (WAY too many cameras) but it’s a really beautiful place.