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Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by pavlov on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:50AM (#17144515)
What's the point of this emergency braking system if it can't take action and can't alert the driver?

Maybe it reports so many false positives that Uber turned those off and just collects the data to improve the algorithm?

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:01AM (#17144644)
I could be totally wrong, but I thought I read the emergency braking function was Volvo’s, and built into the base vehicle. Uber had disabled because they were testing their own software.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by vatueil on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:10AM (#17144741)
The NTSB report mentions the standard automatic emergency braking features from Volvo:

> The vehicle was factory equipped with several advanced driver assistance functions by Volvo Cars, the original manufacturer. The systems included a collision avoidance function with automatic emergency braking, known as City Safety, as well as functions for detecting driver alertness and road sign information. All these Volvo functions are disabled when the test vehicle is operated in computer control but are operational when the vehicle is operated in manual control.

However, that appears to be separate from emergency braking under Uber's self-driving system:

> At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver was needed to mitigate a collision (see figure 2).[2] According to Uber, emergency braking maneuvers are not enabled while the vehicle is under computer control, to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior. The vehicle operator is relied on to intervene and take action. The system is not designed to alert the operator.

> [2]: In Uber’s self-driving system, an emergency brake maneuver refers to a deceleration greater than 6.5 meters per second squared (m/s^2).

It sounds like Uber didn't trust their own self-driving system enough to allow it to initiate sudden crash stops. Too many false positives, I guess? Of course, simply disabling the function leads to other obvious problems, as shown.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by djsumdog on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:00PM (#17145263)
That exactly what I was wondering. So Volvo's system was disabled (and they probably don't have any data from that system anyway) and so these quotes are specifically about Uber's system, which they seem to have full logs for?
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by aeorgnoieang on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:32PM (#17148141)
That's a really weird interpretation. Uber's system could obviously brake but not 'emergency brake'? The system disabled a part of itself? How is that any different than it just never deciding to 'emergency brake'?

I think the better interpretation is that the Uber system disabled another separate (non-Uber) system.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by throwaway_se099 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:36PM (#17149112)
Uber's system could obviously brake but not 'emergency brake'?

There are two systems in the vehicle. One is the manufacturer's, let's call it System V after Volvo, and the other is System U, for Uber.

System V provides collision detection and emergency braking. It played no part in this incident, since it's inactive if the car is under control of System U, which it was at the time.

System U can decide that the car should slow down in some situations. Let's call gradual slowdown Action U1, and emergency slowdown Action U2. The incident called for Action U2, by Uber's criteria. What Uber said is that a) they disabled automatic execution of Action U2, punting it to the driver (really, a bored passenger in driver's seat), and b) that the driver would get no indication of emergency situations from the system.

The idea is, presumably, that driver should watch the road and react in emergencies. But we also know that the driver had the duty of working with the onboard console, which must have been quite a distraction. Effectively, Uber has set themselves up for failure, and it happened.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @04:24PM (#17182649)
You were right. It seemed so stupid I refused to believe it!
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by ggggtez on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:02PM (#17148872)
No. Read the PDF.

Volvo has automatic driver-assistance emergency braking. That's turned off while Uber's self driving system is on, because obviously the two systems are not built to work together.

Uber also disabled emergency braking from their own system. That was because it would "drive erratically" when it was turned on.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by JorgeGT on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:04AM (#17144675)
They disabled both the Volvo system and Uber's own system ability to trigger "emergency braking".
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by mannykannot on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:30AM (#17144967)
Testing is not a valid reason for disabling it, because if it fires, then either Uber's system has failed to respond in time, or it is a false positive, and there cannot be many of those, or else it would be a problem with the relatively large numbers of otherwise ordinary Volvos equipped with emergency braking and being driven by humans.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by solarkraft on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:48AM (#17145152)
Perhaps they wanted lower tolerances for braking than possible with the Volvo system ... which still seems rather unresponsible.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:45PM (#17148256)
I don’t think through any of this anyone has accused Uber of being responsible.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by ericye16 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:03AM (#17144670)
That's not how I interpreted it. The report calls Volvo's system "advanced driver assistance functions" and "automatic emergency braking." When the report refers to "self driving systems" or "emergency braking maneuvers", they are talking about Uber's system.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by rando444 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:23AM (#17144886)
I'm guessing it's something like that.

So assuming the driver knows all of this (and that's a big assumption), then you have the blame shared two ways, and it's hard to tell who deserves more.

(1) You'd have the driver being at fault, since they were responsible for controlling the vehicle at the time, even though the computer was doing the majority of the driving. In this case, the driver should not have been using their phone and ignoring the road and their duties to control the car.

(2) Uber should share some blame for not building alerts to the driver into the system.

But how much of these responsibilities Uber made clear to the driver is very much worth knowing, because however you slice it this was not so much a failure of technology as human negligence.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by Symmetry on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:28AM (#17144942)
We've known for a while now that the driver wasn't using their phone. Instead, they were interacting with the car console where information about the self driving car system was being displayed. During earlier testing there were two test-drivers, one to watch the road and one to watch the console. But to speed up testing Uber had moved to assigning one test driver to both tasks.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by lavezzi on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:56PM (#17146521)
Surprised no-one has remarked that this console is in a terrible position to keep one's attention on the road.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by tremon on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:18PM (#17145499)
How does that speed up testing?
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by Symmetry on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:56PM (#17145950)
You can do twice as many runs with the same number of test drivers.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by TechieKid on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:08PM (#17146075)
By running over anything that gets in the way, apparently.
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by 15155 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:01PM (#17146008)
Double the bandwidth?
Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by mannykannot on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:26AM (#17144913)
If Volvo's emergency braking were doing that many false positives, then it would be a problem when humans are driving its cars, and I am pretty sure that is not the case, or else the NHTSA, and its equivalents in other countries, would be investigating ordinary Volvos with this feature.

If the claim is that Volvo's system is intervening in valid cases where Uber's system would (arguably) have handled it, then Uber's system is driving too aggressively or is too slow in responding. Humans, when paying attention, can drive Volvo's cars without often triggering the emergency braking.

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by comex on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:42AM (#17145089)
I don’t think the “erratic behavior” quote is related to the stock Volvo emergency braking system. The report notes that that also existed and was disabled (justifiably) while Uber’s self-driving system was active. But apparently Uber’s own system had an emergency braking function that was also disabled:

> At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver was needed to mitigate a collision[..]

[emphasis mine]

> In Uber’s self-driving system, an emergency brake maneuver refers to a deceleration greater than 6.5 meters per second squared (m/s2).

Re:Uber Self-Driving Car That Struck Pedestrian Wasn’t Set t... by turtlebits on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:34PM (#17145693)
Possibly because the driver gets alert fatigue and starts ignoring them after so many false positives.

But then again these systems also make people lazy when the vehicle drives perfectly 99% of the time...