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Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by mFixman on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:01AM (#17143124)
I'm lost. Why is it significant that they supposedly create Tether during market crashes?
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by imeron on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:10AM (#17143164)
You can create Tether out of thin air and use it to move the market in a favourable direction.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by mtgx on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:17AM (#17143212)
But assuming Tether was legitimate, wouldn't they also need to create new Tether units during extreme market crashes because that's when the highest demand for Tether would be, so they'd run out of the existing Tether?

They wouldn't need to create new Tether during bull runs, because nobody cares about putting their money into Tether then.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by bripeace on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:45AM (#17144441)
No, it's unlikely if Tether was legitimate USDT printing would correlate so closely with bitcoin (crypto) market downturns.

The reason being, assuming tether is legitimate, for every printing they are sourcing additional USD to back the newly minted USDT. The idea they could so consistently find large investors willing to make NEW 100M+ investments while the crypto markets were in free fall is unlikely to say the least.

And it's not as if that's the only complaints about Tether. The fact Bitfinex and Tether has the same management; USDT pretty much acts as a proxy for Bitfinex to maneuver around banking laws; and that USDT supply pretty much grows monotonically are just a few of the other issues that suggest Tether is not legit.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by sunsu on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:47AM (#17145147)
This is inaccurate. Tether demand INCREASES when the cryptomarkets crash because traders want to escape to non-volatile assets. If everyone converts their crypto to USDT at the same time (which is what happens during big crashes) they MUST print more Tether or the price will increase.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:53AM (#17145202)
> If everyone converts their crypto to USDT at the same time (which is what happens during big crashes) they MUST print more Tether or the price will increase.

This doesn't make sense.

You don't "convert" other cryptocurrencies to USDT, you sell your cryptocurrencies to people who have USDT. If there's a big sell pressure on the cryptocurrency, people want to move back to dollars, and there are not enough USD(T) then the price of the cryptocurrency should come down.

By adding more USDT to the picture you're magicking up money out of thin air to prop up a price. You're basically saying that when people want to sell cryptocurrency, dollars should be brought into existence to facilitate this at their preferred price.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by sunsu on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:14PM (#17145441)
It makes perfect sense. If many people are trying to BUY USDT (increasing demand for USDT) the price of USDT will increase. Tether tries to prevent this by printing more USDT (increasing supply). They are not "magicking" Dollars, they are magicking a commodity (USDT) pegged to Dollar.

I'm not saying that I'm a big Tether fan or anything. However to say that it "doesn't make sense" when they print more Tether during market crashes is false.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:23PM (#17145564)
> It makes perfect sense. If many people are trying to BUY USDT (increasing demand for USDT) the price of USDT will increase.

Why? It's worth exactly one dollar. Which they have in an account. That's the point. The price of the other cryptocurrency will come down, and the value of USDT compared to that cryptocurrency will indeed rise, as it should when people want to sell to a market where there's more demand on dollars than the asset.

> They are not "magicking" Dollars, they are magicking a commodity (USDT) pegged to Dollar.

But it's supposed to be pegged to the dollar by a real dollar backing. In the scenario you're describing, it's a floating asset not backed by anything, with a value maintained purely by supply manipulation, and being issued to prop up an asset price. The opposite of what it's supposed to be.

> However to say that it "doesn't make sense" when they print more Tether during market crashes is false.

It still doesn't. I mean, it makes sense from a "lets conjure up some money to prop up the price of BTC" angle, sure, but that's not the same as it making sense for something that's backed by cash on a 1:1 basis. Tether should only be issued when people give dollars to the tether foundation. That's the claim on their front page, and the basis of their peg.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by paulie_a on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:07PM (#17147228)
There's zero proof they have anything in there account.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:34PM (#17147478)
Well indeed! But that's how it's supposed to work.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by paulie_a on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:10PM (#17147855)
Completely fraudulent?
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:16PM (#17147934)
Nobody outside of tether really knows until there's some sort of audit.

But the secrecy, false claims of regular auditing etc. don't look good from here.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by sine on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:30PM (#17148602)
Bitfinex hired Friedman LLP to audit them.

Friedman only gave a report explicitly specifying "THIS IS NOT AN AUDIT" because Bitfinex wouldn't provide the documents and access beyond simple statements.

Friedman LLP recently removed all mention of ever having been involved with Bitfinex from their webpage.

Previously visible here:

http://archive.li/xbhxI

http://www.friedmanllp.com/insights/auditor-engagement

The Bloomberg article states that Friedman was issued a subpoena from the CFTC, at the same time Bitfinex was subpoenaed.

  Friedman LLP, a New York-based auditing firm, was also 
  subpoenaed by the CFTC after Tether hired it last year to 
  assess claims that Tether held enough U.S. dollars, 
  according to a person familiar with the matter.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by perl4ever on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:11PM (#17146101)
I thought that what people call a "currency peg" is normally the same as what you are calling "maintained purely by supply manipulation". So I suspect you may be using words in a nonstandard way.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:42PM (#17146398)
Not here, not the way tether is set up. Its claim is that its peg is concrete and reliable in the way a floating peg is not, because every tether is backed by a real dollar in a bank account, and in theory is redeemable.

Take a look at their homepage.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by anonymouz on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:17PM (#17147957)
I don't understand why you are getting downvoted, because this is indeed what Tether claims. From their homepage

"100% Backed

Every tether is always backed 1-to-1, by traditional currency held in our reserves. So 1 USD₮ is always equivalent to 1 USD."

Whether Tether's claim is actually true is at best unclear, of course.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by perl4ever on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:15PM (#17147921)
I'm saying that I have the impression that some countries have a currency that is pegged to the dollar, and they maintain dollar reserves, but not one for one. And people do not say that is "floating", but that it is not floating. So it becomes misleading if you start defining a peg as requiring one for one reserves and being "floating" otherwise. There's no downside to using terminology that is clear to other people, unless you are trying to be deceptive.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by Nursie on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:20PM (#17148001)
I'm not making these claims you seem to think I am.

I am 100%, absolutely, positively not saying 1:1 backing is required for a currency peg.

I am saying that in the case of tether, that is the explicit claim they are making about their cryptocurrency. They are claiming that each and every one is backed by a dollar in their account. This is their value proposition, this is what you are buying when you buy tether. An open, audited, 1:1 backed US dollar token * .

Please go and read their homepage if you have some sort of issue with this, it's right there at https://tether.to/

The idea is very much that you can park money in tether and it's not vulnerable to a run on the currency and it cannot drop below a dollar, because each one has a corresponding dollar in an account.

(* unfortunately they are not very open and have never been audited)

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by bripeace on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:10PM (#17145383)
Yes of course demand increases for UDST on downturns which increases the market value of USDT and that's fine.

In fact printing tether to ensure it's market value is $1 is a fine solution. Except for the fact that the bank accounts that BACK the tether with USD are now in deficit compared ot the UDST supply. So while the crypto market value of USDT is $1 it's no longer backed 1-1.

So now, if they're legit, tether must figure out a way to get the missing dollars back into the bank account. The most efficient way to do this is to find an outside investor and trade him all the newly printed USDT for USD. In practice this would be rather difficult to do consistently in sliding markets, difficult enough that the correlation would be low as I pointed out.

You could also exchange USDT for various COINS then sell the coins for USD which then go into those reserve bank accounts. If you have a willing exchange partner with lots of cash and a need for bitcoins then this could work pretty well. Considering Bitfnex is run by the same dudes as tether, if they are legit then this is probably what they are doing. But all that's just IF they are legit and there's plenty of things wrong with USDT outside of whether it's backed 1-1 with USD.

TLDR: Trading volume and market value of USDT does not relieve tether of actually having USD on hand for each Tether that exists.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by sine on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:35PM (#17148651)
By your logic if that were the case, Tether would need to be destroyed everytime the crypto-markets rise...

Plus, Tether's offical website and documentation state that's not how Tether is intended, they claim it is always 1:1 backed by a real USD reserve in a bank account (which they tell people they will audit, but the auditor backed out after giving a statement that said Bitfinex would not provide the proper documentation and access, later erasing any mention of having been associated with Bitfinex.)

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by evilDagmar on Saturday May 26, 2018 @04:57PM (#17164206)
No, they don't need to print more tether to protect the price. The price of tether is locked to $1.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by dragonwriter on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:13PM (#17145417)
> But assuming Tether was legitimate, wouldn't they also need to create new Tether units during extreme market crashes because that's when the highest demand for Tether would be, so they'd run out of the existing Tether?

BTC crashes inherently would create BTC -> USDT interest, sure, but not inherently create USD availability for backing new USDT.

Creation of legitimate USDT would mainly seem to happen when there is high USD -> BTC interest, because that is, in many cases, realized by USD -> USDT conversion (with, in principle, the USDT created at that time and the USD in reserve backing the new USDT) followed by USDT -> BTC exchange.

You might see new legitimate, large-scale USDT creation in a crash if, say, bargain-hunting new USD money is flowing into BTC, but the people exiting BTC and driving the price down are holding USDT without converting to USD.

> They wouldn't need to create new Tether during bull runs, because nobody cares about putting their money into Tether then.

Yes, they would, unless “bull runs” in the USDT-denominated BTC market are just money already held in USDT rushing back into BTC, rather than new USD flowing into the USDT/BTC market.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by laken on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:23AM (#17143239)
Day traders use Tether a lot, even during bull runs. Because the market never closes, many full-time traders put their crypto all into tether when they're done trading for the day.
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by vkou on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:40AM (#17145072)
Why not just put it into USD when they are done for the day?
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:23PM (#17146826)
a lot of exchanges don't support USD conversion due to increased hassle of dealing with the dollar/us gov regulations. its easier to be a crypto only exchange than a crypto/fiat exchange
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by fastball on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:29PM (#17145622)
Crypto/Fiat transactions are much more expensive than Crpyto/Crypto transactions. Why impact your bottom line if you don't need to?
Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by vkou on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:08PM (#17147835)
Why is exchanging 1 BTC into 10,000 USD on an exchange more expensive then exchanging 1 BTC into 10,000 USDT - as long as you don't withdraw it?

Is it because you don't trust the exchange to honor your USD withdrawal the next morning?

What makes you trust that Bitfinex is more likely to honor USDT to USD exchanges the next morning?

It's almost certain that USDT isn't actually backed 1:1 by USD. If it were, it would be trivially auditable. You're just moving yourself from one category of potential risk (Your exchange steals your USD), into a category of almost certain risk (The shoe drops and we discover that USDT was a scam all along.)

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by laken on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:14PM (#17146729)
In addition, it's more "liquid" too. It's easier to turn tether into pretty much any altcoin on most exchanges vs turning USD back into altcoins.

There's still a belief in some circles too that a crypto/crypto transaction isn't a taxable event, which isn't true anymore. Regardless, some either believe this or know it's not true but find it easier to tax-evade this way.

Re:U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation by ska on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:47PM (#17148267)

  which isn't true anymore
It's hard to argue it was ever true, or ever likely to have been treated as such.