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Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:27AM (#17134432)
> The UK’s fibre to the home infrastructure is so poor it’s out-performed by almost every other country in Europe (Latvia, with 50.6 per cent fibre coverage, ranks first in terms of market penetration).

The reason the UK is on a mix of copper and fiber is because the entrenched monopoly, BT, didn't think fiber to the home (FTTH) was worth investing in. To protect their investment in their existing copper network, they pushed tech like VDSL/FTTC (up to 80Mbps) and now G.Fast (up to 500Mbps), which are "fiber to the cabinet" but the last mile is copper. The problem is, speeds fall off depending on how far your home is from the cabinet. I've seen many non-technical consumers be disappointed and say "the ISP said I can only get 11Mbps but they advertise up to 80Mbps".

BT have now been told by the telecoms regulator to prioritize deploying fiber to the home. Also, serious money is now pouring into alternative network providers. CityFibre, which is installing its own gigabit-grade fiber network in about 30 UK cities (so home users in all these cities can be offered FTTH), was recently acquired by a consortium with fairly deep pockets. BT, which historically was the entrenched monopoly, is no longer the sole arbiter of the UK's broadband future.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by oldcynic on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:08AM (#17134751)
If only that were true.

The Thatcher Government stopped BT's already running rollout of FTTH in 1990. That gave us cable competition from Blueyonder who did bugger all and a BT regulated against playing in that space any more.

Hell Hastings and around Martlesham Heath (OK that doesn't really count) had FTTH in the mid 80s.

If BT had been allowed their way it'd be all FTTH by now. Regulation pushed a lot of the subsequent ADSL/VDSL product as it was all they were allowed to do.

It's only now, with broken infrastructure, and the regulator pushing for removal of those restrictions that BT got permitted to do fibre again, but this time around it's FTTC.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Lio on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:47AM (#17135090)
This. BT didn't ignore FTTH because they thought it was a bad technology. BT invented _alot_ of technology that makes fibre deployments world wide cheap enough to be feasible, including fibre jetting.

They didn't role it out because first of all they were barred from selling TV over fibre in the late 80s early 90s in favour of foreign cable companies. Those cable companies eventually merged to form Virgin Media.

Later BT opted for cheaper VDSL technology because it wasn't clear they would be allow to profit (due to wholesale price regulation) from FTTH investment. The expensive bit of deploying FTTH is in "holes and poles". i.e. digging up roads.

None of the other UK players want to invest in FTTH outside of major cities and only BT is legally compelled to provide any form of broadband nationally at all. Firms like CityFibre just want to cream off the most profitable areas of the country and kill off cross-subsidising the rest.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by oldcynic on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:18PM (#17135957)
Not to forget the whole point of BT's 21st century network, or whatever they called it, was to get the whole backbone on TCP with hugely upgraded capacity in the expectation of nationwide FTTH. With initially 10, planned 100M connections in every house the backbone needed it. This at a time when half the population hadn't yet discovered dial-up.

Government couldn't see past the old world of cable and watching football, BT pretty clearly could see far past just the TV. It was popping up on the news pretty regularly in the late 80s along with all the interesting things it might bring.

Me, I just wanted to consign my BT Home Highway (128K ISDN) to the bin.

What we ended up with was a travesty with BT restricted to copper only and exchange sharing for ADSL. As someone else pointed out most of what they invented got sold off to S Korea.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:45PM (#17136883)
> Firms like CityFibre just want to cream off the most profitable areas of the country and kill off cross-subsidising the rest.

That has not been my experience. I live in an urban area where BT has a monopoly (no Virgin). They were not even slightly interested in deploying even FTTC -- the coverage was full of "notspots" where one house in a street had decent broadband and another up the road had none at all. BT have been quite lazy from where I stand, leaving players like CityFibre an opening.

Also, blaming Thatcher towards the end of this decade seems not to be very useful. More recently, Ofcom asked BT to consider FTTH repeatedly in aughties (2000-2010). BT declined to deploy saying "no business case" right up to Dec 2017 when their hand was forced by Ofcom. If BT were better run, they'd recognize the value in FTTH by the end of the aughties surely?

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:35PM (#17135513)
Gigaclear is deploying fiber to rural communities, for example: https://www.gigaclear.com/fibre-optic-gigaclear-network-for-...

CityFibre is deploying fiber to a bunch of cities like Milton Keynes and Peterborough.

I do agree that there are a number of ISPs, like Sky and Talktalk, who are content to ride on OpenReach's coattails and build no last-mile infrastructure of their own. Virgin Media do have their own last-mile infrastructure but it's very, very limited geographically afaik.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by solf1re on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:04PM (#17135791)
Sky and Talk Talk are already working with CityFibre in York for FTTH.[1][2].

[1]https://www.ultrafibreoptic.co.uk/ [2]https://www.talktalk.co.uk/shop/ufo/broadband

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by walshemj on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:30PM (#17135469)
Ad at one point it was all set to go just needed the signature I know some one who saw all the paper work laid out ready for signing.

A lot of the slagging off comes from hobbyist "entrepreneurs" who think either that they can run an office on home adsl products and or/that all the consumer customers should subsidize their business

Oh and that nice Mr Murdoc whos upset that BT is competing with him for sport don't see the tabloids complaints about the Murdoch tax to watch football.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by stuaxo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:08AM (#17134753)
In the 80s we were going to get investment in fibre, to every home - building factories to get economies of scale.

This was stopped, and everything sold to South Korea, and we know how good their internet has been for years.

https://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost...

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by arethuza on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:34AM (#17134489)
Buying a house in a rural area is a nightmare as you don't really know in advance what speed you will get and the speeds quoted on sites like Rightmove are for entire postcodes - not the property in question.

We bought a house last year in a rural area in Scotland - not far from Edinburgh and were appalled at the broadband options. We get 20Mbps down and 1 up which is enough for most things (barely) but that was one of the fastest speeds we saw (apart from one house in the wilds of Perthshire that had 400Mpbs....).

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by JonoW on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:56AM (#17134659)
It's not even rural areas that suck, I'm in zone 4 London, so pretty suburban, and I get about 7Mbps down/0.5Mbps up! The FTTC roll-out said it was planned for my cabinet, not just says it's not.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:11PM (#17137160)
If your cabinet isn't provisioned for FTTC, make some noise with the council. If possible, get some residents together and write polite but firm letters to your local councillors, MPs, and BT executives. Follow up with further letters.

From personal experience, it does work. You want things to get to the point where some senior executive at BT says "can you sort this cabinet out" because that's easier than dealing with all the noise from residents, councillors and MPs. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by shocks on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:01PM (#17135213)
I'm in zone 4 too and I get 200Mbps. I could pay for more, and I'd probably get it, but 200Mbps is fine.

I guess it's just a dice roll. /shrug

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by mf2hd on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:42PM (#17139120)
I'm in zone 2, I have 76 Mbit vdsl, in reality it's 40-50 Mbit on good days. Virgin is not available in the building.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by welly on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:01PM (#17138773)
Boat dweller in Central London here. EE 4g gives me between 20 and 60mbps and 96gb data a month.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:26PM (#17135422)
There are specialist ISPs like Gigaclear who have connected up villages in Oxfordshire, for example[1,2]. I believe the model is you get a bunch of families to commit to the service and they deliver fiber to your community, if it's within their service area.

Deploying fiber can be done in a fairly low-impact way and as long as planners don't put up roadblocks, deploying fiber to remote locations isn't a massive challenge, as a number of rural deployments demonstrate.

[1] https://www.gigaclear.com/about/case-studies-testimonials/ [2] https://www.gigaclear.com/fastershire-rollout-schedule/

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by yankcrime on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:05AM (#17134722)
Bogons[0] are involved in a great project to do something about this - check out Balquhidder Community Broadband[1]. Bogons' Twitter[2] also has some fantastic updates about their work to lay fibre and provide connectivity to a few of these remote Scottish areas.

[0] http://www.bogons.net

[1] http://balquhidder.net

[2] https://twitter.com/BogonsNet

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by pjc50 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:48AM (#17135096)
That's a fascinating read, thanks!

I see they're based here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-275016... in yet another disused nuclear bunker.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by isostatic on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:58PM (#17136384)
The guy who runs Bogons is Brandan Butterworth, who is credited with getting the BBC onto the internet in the 90s, and is currently "Chief Scientist" for BBC R&D.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by arethuza on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:49AM (#17135106)
There are some interesting providers in the area e.g. Fibrecast:

https://www.fibrecast.uk/

Unfortunately the area we live isn't serviced by them - but they were very good at checking availability!

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by rwnspace on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:49AM (#17134592)
https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

About as accurate as you'll ever get.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:21AM (#17134842)
The problem is that those tools don't take into account the quality of the wire going to your house, they just quote a best-case scenario based on the wire's length, assuming a perfect wire.

It does not take into account rusted, damaged wire, open cabinets where rain & moisture can enter, etc.

This tool gives me an estimate of 13 Mbps on my line - I actually only get 6, and when seeing the building's electrical & phone line cabinets, I can understand why, but as a consumer you shouldn't be required to manually try to estimate how "good" your phone line is - the ISP should be giving you an estimate you can trust.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:28PM (#17135444)
This is true, but there are a number of data errors in BT's own inventory, so you will need to take this with a pinch of salt. For instance, according to this (and therefore in BT's internal systems as well) I am eligible for G.Fast -- I am not.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by arethuza on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:15AM (#17134804)
Doesn't work terribly well for new houses though!

Was amazed to see quite expensive new houses (£500K+) with no access to broadband available.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by tialaramex on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:23PM (#17135395)
House builders are told (unless they're literally building just one or two homes) to call BT at the start. For any large site, or where it's no trouble anyway, BT will run fibre to the new builds for IIRC free, the builder needs to make sure there are the right ducts etcetera in the ground, then a van shows up and blows fibre.

But guess how many people in house building remember to do that?

So instead they have the houses mostly finished and the sparky asks OK where do these phone points connect to? So that's when BT is called. And then BT will shrug and say you can pay our normal fee, you get copper cables, we can't promise how good the Internet service will be.

The part that's sad is people will stand there, talking to a sales person about their £350k house, checking things on their phone, and not think to ask - wait, this does have high speed internet - right? You aren't trying to sell me a brand new house that lacks Internet access are you?

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:30PM (#17135468)
One way councils can force the issue is to deny planning permission unless builders can show they've engaged a telecoms company (doesn't have to be BT, could be Virgin or Gigaclear or Cityfibre). After all, we don't accept houses built without electricity and water. Why should we accept houses with subpar connectivity?
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by kingosticks on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:17PM (#17137217)
I recently got a new fibre connection (not from Virgin or BT) in my newish flat and I was taking to the chap who installed it about exactly this. He told me that it's actually the builders who pay BT and Virgin to come and connect up their buildings. This is so they can then market them as being almost "plug-and-play" with these services as some buyers look for this. The other smaller providers can then come along and install/connect their stuff but at their expense, and as you say, often afterwards. He said that this is made harder since installing afterwards means dealing with managing agents (in the case of of a block of flats) and this can be painful, which I can 100% believe. Perhaps the situation varies depending on where you are in the country, this was London (where there are no £350k houses!).
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by walshemj on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:42PM (#17136849)
One of my friends parents a couple of decades ago brought an architect designed house and the designers/contractors neglected to put in any ducting!

Took them ages to get POTS - You can see why Civil engineers make Architect jokes

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by isostatic on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:02PM (#17136425)
My new house (well 2 years old now) came with fibre into the hall cupboard (and cat5 to every room), I'd assume that FTTP is default with newbuild

Most ISPs don't seem geared up for FTTP, so it's good for BT, as most people will just go with them.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by simonbarker87 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:53AM (#17134620)
Every home I have lived in for the past 10 years or so has had Virgin fibre to the home. BT don't have the monopoly at all, they just have poor infrastructure and are the defacto that most people choose. Our unit didn't have a direct fibre connection when we took the lease, we rang Virgin and they used infill money to lay a fibre cable to all the units on the trading estate at no cost to us other than the initial £20 set up fee.

Perhaps I am very lucky and the North East has good internet but my experience has not been bad at all.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by merinowool on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:33PM (#17135497)
Virgin is very poor experience and they de facto have monopoly on fiber in some areas and that enables them to piss on customers who cannot get any alternative. Recently I had a fault and I was 3 weeks without the internet. I am sure that could have been resolved quicker, but their staff was completely incompetent. Cherry on the cake - I am also nowhere near the advertised speed.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by simonbarker87 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:02PM (#17135770)
Funny how we all have different experiences, I have been with them for 10 years (and longer before that in a shared student house) and can’t praise them enough. Much better than the experience we had with BT in the early days of starting the business.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:14AM (#17134791)
Are you sure it's actually fibre? Or is it their bullshit coax cable (HFC) they mis-sell as "fibre"?
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by matthewmacleod on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:20AM (#17134833)
It's a bit weird that there hasn't been a decision about the mis-selling of "fibre" connections in the UK. Virgin's network is pretty great if you're not in an oversubscribed area, but it just seems weird to bill it as "fiber".

To be fair though, DOCSIS 3.1 can push 10GB through coax so it's not all bad.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:30AM (#17134936)
Yeah, so it's not fibre, and should not be sold as such. Not saying HFC is bad (it's actually an awesome way of reusing a deprecated cable TV network), but it's not fibre.

HFC for example is a shared medium across the entire neighbourhood, and in fact if you get root access on your modem and run tcpdump on the HFC interface you may see everyone else's packets as well - there's optional encryption built into DOCSIS but I've never seen it enabled.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by pricechild on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:51PM (#17135667)
The ASA has made the decision to allow it.

It's annoying that we defer to them...

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by trumped on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:01PM (#17139645)
AT&T does that a lot around here... every 6 months they knock at my door saying that they have been improving the network and sell it as fiber but the fiber only goes to a main box in your neighborhood, and copper goes to your house (it's probably been the same for the last 10 years)... but to tell you the truth, I don't care if it's fiber, only the actual speed matters (with AT&T it is not very fast).

I could get 2000mbps with Comcast and can only get 25mbps with AT&T...

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by simonbarker87 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:59PM (#17135739)
It’s definitley fibre and we get a stable 100Mbit connection all the time.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by diet_soda_kills on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:48PM (#17138125)
Sorry, but it's definitely not fibre. I know they told you it is, but it isn't. They're using the old cable TV network. It's a coaxial protocol called DOCSIS.

Like BT, Virgin Media is fibre to the cabinet and then copper for the last mile. It's just that the coaxial copper and the DOCSIS protocol used by Virgin do a better job at speed than the twisted pair copper and the VDSL protocol used by BT.

It's going to be very interesting to see how they advertise real fibre to the public when it arrives, if even on Hacker News there's confusion about it.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:28AM (#17134916)
We don't have Virgin on this premises here in London and the mobile phone signal is so bad it's barely usable at all.

But I have to say that BT has been a very reliable ISP and the speeds are OK (in spite of being copper) with the exception of Sunday evenings.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by simonbarker87 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:00PM (#17135754)
It might be worth contacting Virgin and see if you can get a free installation under the infill funding, it’s specifically for urban areas that have been missed out.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by pjc50 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:46AM (#17134575)
I'm fairly sure there have been repeated initiatives, over decades, to improve speeds where the government has thrown money at Openreach and they've achieved next to nothing.

e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40481561

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by tialaramex on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:51PM (#17135668)
I guess it could be a weird coincidence? Money goes to BT. BT upgrades loads of cabinets to enable VDSL, people get faster speeds. Could all be unrelated.

Doesn't seem like it though. Also there's a deal where if BT says "This upgrade makes no commercial sense" (so they won't do it without government money) but then they make money off the upgrade, there's a "claw back" which gets back the extra money. Several of those clawbacks have now triggered in fact, and the money was used to fund yet more broadband.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by dodobdob167 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:07AM (#17134745)
This was last summer. What time line do you expect?
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by walshemj on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:40PM (#17136813)
The Usual case of MP's with zero technical knowledge FTC make much more sense economically - if the Govemnet wants it has to give something back other wise why as a share holder should I pay for it.

TBH 11 Mbs is fine for a consumer do they realy need more I only get 3.8 or so and I only ever have the odd hang on iplayer every 9 months

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#17137107)
11 Mbps down starts out as "fine" for the average home user, but remember needs change. What if that home user gets a Ultra HD TV and starts streaming Netflix in 4K (needs a steady 25 Mbps)? What if they have kids, who can be more voracious users?

Also FTTC is asymmetric, which means 11Mbps down corresponds to something quite horrible up. Which means video conferencing doesn't work well. Which means home-working, Skype, video chat, etc are all hobbled. In fact, I know people with fiber broadband whose children use 4G for video chat at home.

The example I usually give is that with ubiquitous gigabit internet in a city, you could send your kids to school even on a "snow day" because the teacher would be able to assemble the class and do something useful together even if the school was physically inaccessible.

The way medicine and medical care for the elderly/less mobile is provisioned would change with gigabit internet. Telemedicine and remote diagnostic tools would be a lot more popular than they are now.

These are just some thoughts as an average consumer who's not connected to the telecoms business at all (but has spent a lot of time trying to get decent internet service out of ISPs).

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by walshemj on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:02PM (#17138777)
I have done muti national podcasts USA UK and AUS not problem on my notspot 3.5 MBS.

Telemedicene and Video conferencing have been the latest thing in telecoms for decades.

Just because you singular want something doesn't mean its sensible in the context of planning your countries national infrastructure or sense for a national telco which has to balance multiple needs.

And what happens when some pensioner askes the PM during an election why there pension is not going up and "they" are subsiding these kids dowoading porn on facetubes - ask Gordon brown about being ambushed like this.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by cm2187 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:39AM (#17134523)
Agree, and the BT monopoly is exactly what slowed down DSL deployment and speed in he UK 15 years ago.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by ksec on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:13AM (#17134784)
Having had three few provider and different tech, unless I have a need of 1Gbps+ broadband speed in the future, I would much rather have copper RJ11 or RJ45.

Copper Ethernet RJ45 is the best. No more modem, just plug and play. Installing a Ethernet cable is, assuming enough space in the pipe, can be easily pulled through using whatever force you like, I don't think you can actually do any damage to the cable while installing it.

The telephone wire, It is a little hard to imagine a home without these wires. ( May be there are parts of the world which don't have them a default? I don't know ). There is no need to do installing. It is Modem then plug and play. G.Fast A3 actually allows 212Mhz and Dynamic allocation of Upstream and Downstream bandwidth. And gets 300Mbps + for 300M from Cabinet, and 500Mbps or those within 200M.

I used to long for Fibre, but then when the installation comes, it either works perfectly in pipes that get pulled through, or you have to lay them out in the open and are warned they are extremely brittle. Which gets me a few phone call from friends getting nervous saying they would much rather stick with Cable or telephone wire with VDSL. Or in one case where she only has a 6M ADSL she just flat out cut the services and didn't want fibre's hassle. She is mostly on Mobile Phone anyway and her unlimited 4G plans is fast enough for what she needs. The only time she needs WiFi is when she is doing IOS update and that could be done in Office. And when the times Massive MIMO, 5G NG comes with high increase in capacity and speed. I can only imagine there will be more doing just that.

A lot of times we nerds, geeks, tech savvy enthusiast just wanted faster speed, cheaper, better tech whatever. Fibre allow us going to 10Gbps! ( Yes there are 10Gbps Internet services to Home ), without actually asking if or do the many user cares. Last mile is a hard problem, and I wish more thoughts will be put in design and installation parts.

Luckily we have people working on TerabitDSL, with spaces in between copper wires and using Waveguide-mode that is similar to use of millimeter-wave transmissions in 5G. [1]

[1] https://www.assia-inc.com/terabit-dsl/

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by pjc50 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:38AM (#17135004)
> Copper Ethernet RJ45 is the best

Not to be That Guy, but RJ45 is a plug standard; normal ethernet cable is "cat5" or "cat6", and normal 10/100/1000 Ethernet is limited to just 100 meters. Which is completely useless given the average cabinet distances in the UK.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by ksec on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:04AM (#17141683)
May be I should have properly name it CAT6A Or CAT8 even. I am talking about FTTB, and not FTTC. Of coz it depend where you live, FTTC makes more sense in most cases in UK, FTTB makes more sense for places like London City.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by walshemj on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:36PM (#17136763)
Think the OP meant ethernet last mile which on copper is 2BASE-TL or more likely 10PASS-TS

Though I suspect that most ELM is delivered over fibre and the CPE just presents a RJ45 fo ryou to plug your TOR Router into.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by matthewmacleod on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:26AM (#17134898)
Copper Ethernet RJ45 is the best. No more modem, just plug and play

I mean, you still have some kind of consumer equipment there, which the ISP will likely be supplying for almost all users anyway – so that's quite a specific thing.

Despite the headline figures, G.fast will not achieve anything close to that.

And I have to say that all seems like a little short-term thinking. The fragility of fibre in a permanent installation is hardly a convincing argument.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by ksec on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:08AM (#17141699)
You need Router for Wireless access, it cuts the Modem, ONT equipment. Or if you have just one computer you can directly plug your Ethernet cable to the Wall Socket. I used to live in a building where every flat had Ethernet cable were pre-wired.

If you are in a new building, without furniture and mess, fibre of course make sense. If you live in a Small Apartment, old making installation difficult, Fibre isn't so great. My guess is that the problem may be specific to cities.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:26AM (#17134897)
New builds in France don't have telephone wires for example, if an alternative is available (real fibre) they just install that instead.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by isostatic on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:06PM (#17136457)
Assuming they're the same as my home, they come with a battery backup unit which powers the landlines (as landline phones are normally powered from the exchange - and thus work in power cuts)

Of course people who still have landlines nowdays probably have cordless ones that require a powered base station, but I assume that at least in the UK, the line must be left powered during power cuts.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#17137114)
Nope, none of that in France - just a standard fibre socket, and the ISP gives you an ONT that turns it into Ethernet, which then goes into a router.

I've never actually seen any ISP there even advertise a battery backup unit, I guess if you need they'll just tell you to buy a standard UPS.

No idea how it works in the UK, haven't had consumer-grade fibre here yet, always just got business-grade stuff where you bring your own hardware & UPS if needed.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by isostatic on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:25AM (#17144254)
> No idea how it works in the UK, haven't had consumer-grade fibre here yet, always just got business-grade stuff where you bring your own hardware & UPS if needed.

I've installed (business) fibre links on 6 continents, handoff has always been a pair of fibres (usually LC or SC), usually with a /30 ipv4/ethernet, and a routed network pointing at my end of the handoff (or in the case of private peering, a BGP configuration)

My FTTH from BT is a single fibre (no idea if it's compatible with generic bidirectional sfps). This runs into an Openreach converter box - powered by a battery backup - which has 2 phone outputs and 4 rj45s.

My core mikrotik plugs into one of the rj45s and establishes a pppoe session with BT's network.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by signal11 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:14AM (#17142611)
Oh that's interesting, I've lived in two FTTH properties in the UK, the ISP installed a battery backup in both properties just for the phone line as otherwise the landline would die if the power went out and apparently that violates some UK law about landline availability.

Given the rate at which people -- especially younger people -- are getting rid of landlines in the UK I suspect in the future this'll be a non-issue. To be honest I'm not sure why I have a landline still.

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by Rjevski on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:26AM (#17142653)
Which ISPs was that with?

I’ve never actually had a landline on fiber ever. It was always just standard Ethernet on top of which I run whatever I want (SIP client or WiFi calling).

How was that “landline” working? Do they give you a little converter that turns Ethernet into a standard phone jack (and converts it to SIP internally), or is there some other non-IP based signaling for that voice traffic?

Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by ksec on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:09AM (#17141707)
Is that by law? To have a Standard Fibre Socket? God I wish every government would implement just that.
Re:UK ISPs have to stop lying about broadband speeds by dodobdob167 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:06AM (#17134741)
More accurately, it's down to the regulator being clear that it would not permit a return on the investment to roll it out. The competition is a joke. Virgin Liberty Global managed 100k passed prem for project lightning this year, talk talk and co are talk asked nothing else. How many times will companies like cityfibre have to go bust before investors realize early how hawkish Ofcom has got. Also what will people pay for? When they realize that g.fast will deliver 120 to 330 the glamor of fiber will fade. How many commenters have 50+ and suffer? I've got 330 fttp having moved from 12mbs vdsl, honestly I only notice once a week.