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Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by phendrenad2 on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:25AM (#17102196)
This whole thing misses the point. We need WhiteboardFreeAndAlsoTakeHomeFree. In other industries, my resume and a quick discussion verifying that I actually did the work I said I did is suffficient
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by brianwawok on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:51AM (#17102413)
So say you are at a job. fairly happy. Maybe not your dream job, but you decide to look around and interview with me.

I could present you two options:

1) I just hire you after a 30 minute chat. 50% you don't work out, and we fire you after 30 days.

2) We have a longer interview. We whiteboard. We take home test. We whiteboard some more. 90% chance that you don't get fired after 30 days.

Which would you prefer? As a business owner, I am happy to just try people I don't know well - IFF they are willing to accept that there is a very good chance they are fired within the first 30 days.

There is such a huge range in developers. The haves vs the have-nots can be a 100x different productivity difference. I really want to try to tease that difference out. It is really really hard.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by specialp on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:53PM (#17103969)
Actually I would greatly prefer option 1. I am very confident that given nearly any situation I will prove my worth and have never had an employer disappointed with my work. I am not as confident I would complete a contrived coding skill challenge on the spot on a whiteboard because I never work like that in reality. My job is to sit here and solve unique problems by any means available to me in a maintainable and scalable way. I do that very well and that is hard to test via whiteboard implementations of contrived examples.

That is how it works in other fields. One of our managers asked his friend that owns a body shop how he finds good employees. He basically has a chat with them, feels them out, then hires them. If they don't work out he hires someone else. Perhaps it shouldn't be as stigmatic as "firing" after 30 days but you have instead hired someone on a 30 day contract with option to hire permanently. If they don't work out, that option is not exercised and that person is free to go try somewhere else. I can tell pretty quickly from chatting with a developer if they are a total fraud. I can't tell really quickly who will become a great dev, I just know when someone has the chops to have potential.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by Clubber on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:35PM (#17103826)
#1. I'm totally fine with firing after 30 days if I don't work out. I'm positive it won't, so I'd prefer to prove myself doing real work.

That's the way it used to be done and I think we should go back to doing that. Read the resume, ask some questions about the resume, 30 minutes to an hour full interview, done.

You get hired on, put on a probationary period, if they don't work out, fire them.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by actionowl on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:40PM (#17102836)
> 1) I just hire you after a 30 minute chat. 50% you don't work out, and we fire you after 30 days.

Personally, that's my preference. If I don't think I can do the job I'll know after a 30 minute chat.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by ryandrake on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:45PM (#17103397)
Same here. I feel I have vastly more control of my work performance over the course of 30 days than I have control of the assessment of 6 interviewers after seeing me for 30 minutes.

In other words, I think there is far more than 50% chance that things work out after 30 days and far less than 50% chance that I impress 6 interviewers.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by brianwawok on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:47PM (#17102893)
Right, then maybe it would self select out those that can't do the job.

Interesting idea. If you fire fast enough it may not actually cost that much more money to a business to hire a bit more as long as you fire the bad ones fast.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by cableshaft on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:55PM (#17102980)
> 2) We have a longer interview. We whiteboard. We take home test. We whiteboard some more. 90% chance that you don't get fired after 30 days.

But a 400% increase in that you find some sort of excuse not to hire me and I won't even get hired in the first place. Your percentages only make #2 more attractive if there's a more-or-less equal chance of being hired both ways.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by brianwawok on Saturday May 19, 2018 @03:26PM (#17109317)
Well, #2 makes more sense if you value stability and not suprises.

I suspect many people would rather do 10 interviews and then get 1 job they keep for a year+ compared to 2 interviews and a 50% chance the job that hire them, fires them in 30 days. But I could be wrong, mostly basing on what I would want.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by maxk42 on Friday May 18, 2018 @07:43PM (#17105773)
There's such a thing as contract-to-hire for this exact scenario.

Why did the industry seem to forget this?

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by brianwawok on Saturday May 19, 2018 @03:24PM (#17109311)
Most good developers are already in a stable job.

I would not leave a w2 job for a contract job. Nor would any good developer I know.

This is why the industry "forgets" it. It's not that attractive to a good candidate.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by maxk42 on Saturday May 19, 2018 @03:31PM (#17109343)
I've done it many times. It's attractive if the offer is attractive. Last one I took was a $20k raise over the prior job. The one before that was a $30k raise. It's only risky if you're not confident in your skills.
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by rattaz on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:37PM (#17102809)
No way! The lamers you end up firing (after 30 days' pay) will easily make a living out of it. They could even be PARALLEL lamers, pulling 30 days pay off multiple sucker companies.
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by Clubber on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:52PM (#17103964)
At my current company, we fired a guy after 3 days because he misrepresented his skills. I didn't interview or hire him, but I suspect his buddy did the interview.
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by brianwawok on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:46PM (#17102883)
Hah, you should be able to see the pattern pretty quick?

Wow, 8 jobs last year? Busy life?

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by miranda_rights on Friday May 18, 2018 @05:45PM (#17105208)
It seems like they could easily drop half of those jobs off of their resume. That's usually the advice given for people who leave jobs after a short period.
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by mkohlmyr on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:31AM (#17102260)
I really don't buy that a resume alone can sufficiently put across your actual level of ability as a Software Engineer. And there are plenty of people who are better talkers than doers. One way or another I think it's entirely reasonable to want to see actual code.

If you want to do that by way of an open source portfolio, sure. But not everyone has open source contributions, so then I would need some other process for acquiring a work sample.

I have seen many people here say you should hire people on a contract basis for a few days/a week. I don't know what it's like doing that in the US, but for the UK market that sounds like a ton of administrative overhead for both parties to take on in order to establish if they are even a good fit.

Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by sidlls on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:49AM (#17102399)
This style of interview works in plenty of other professions that are much more rigorous than software development. You'll be hard pressed to find an aerospace engineering company that is going to ask candidates to evaluate integrals on the whiteboard that they'd normally look up in the CRC or implement a numerical solution for (probably using a prepackaged library), for example. Yet you're proposing an analog of this very thing here.
Re:Show HN: Whiteboardfree – Developer Jobs at Companies Tha... by actionowl on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:43PM (#17102860)
> But not everyone has open source contributions

In my experience, anyone we've hired WITH open source contributions has been 10x better than those without.