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Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by Hamuko on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:54PM (#17095645)
>I do not have the resources to hire a Data Protection Officer (DPO) or EU Representative as required by GDPR.

>1. The controller and the processor shall designate a data protection officer in any case where: (a) the processing is carried out by a public authority or body, except for courts acting in their judicial capacity; (b) the core activities of the controller or the processor consist of processing operations which, by virtue of their nature, their scope and/or their purposes, require regular and systematic monitoring of data subjects on a large scale; or (c) the core activities of the controller or the processor consist of processing on a large scale of special categories of data pursuant to Article 9 and personal data relating to criminal convictions and offences referred to in Article 10.

I thought this guy was a single person who put something on Github. How is he required to appoint a DPO? What kind of large-scale processing of personal information is he doing?

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by CobrastanJorji on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:00PM (#17095727)
That seems insane, and I'm definitely not a lawyer, so maybe there's an out, but I think maybe he's right. Article 37 is pretty clear that if your core business involves processing data that's subject to the GDPR, you need to appoint a DPO, and it can't just be you, because they also require that the DPO can't have a conflict of interest. Man, that's unfortunate.

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-37-gdpr/

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by mnkypete on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:02PM (#17095765)
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...

Under the GDPR, you must appoint a DPO if:

you are a public authority (except for courts acting in their judicial capacity); your core activities require large scale, regular and systematic monitoring of individuals (for example, online behaviour tracking); or your core activities consist of large scale processing of special categories of data or data relating to criminal convictions and offences.

So - no?

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by skrause on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:17PM (#17096560)
In Germany the law has been that you only need a DPO if a) you are a public authority, b) at least 10 people in your organization/company handle or have access to personal data or c) you handle sensitive data (e.g. health records).

As far as I know the GDPR doesn't change these requirements here. So even if you're a company of 5 people and just handling some email addresses or similar data you certainly don't need a DPO.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by Hamuko on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:04PM (#17095797)
First of all, you're saying "core business". Is this even a business?

And I copy-pasted direct text from the regulation. Note how it says "large scale". Twice. If he is actually processing personal data on a large scale, then maybe it is not unreasonable to have a DPO.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by wuliwong on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:49PM (#17096282)
Is "large scale" defined?
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by tchock23 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @11:34PM (#17098481)
No. It's not defined. That's part of the problem...
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by GordonS on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:04PM (#17096439)
I think it's clear that 1 person is not a large scale op. I do agree it should be defined in at least somewhat precise terms though.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by djrogers on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:46PM (#17096804)
The number of employees isn't a factor as far as the scale of data processing is concerned - it's the scale of the actual data processing...
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by lovich on Thursday May 17, 2018 @07:21PM (#17097072)
At a certain point, even if you are a single person, if you are processing and tracking enough data then you still shouldn't be allowed to do what you want. Company's could just outsource all liability to single person consultancies then like they outsource a lot of none core jobs to consultancies to get around employment law now
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by unilynx on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:05PM (#17095803)
which clause would apply to require a DPO?

clause a: not a public body

clause b: not systematically monitoring (eg. installing video cameras all over the streets)

clause c: not processing large scale sensitive or criminal information.

doesn't look to me like a DPO is needed based on this article?

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by kaspm on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:34PM (#17096704)
It really comes down to the definition of "systematically monitoring". On our service we capture behavior (say in FullStory) and Google Analytics at a "large scale". How the DPO clause gets interpreted is going to be a key finding in the next few months. This is imho the most confusing and potentially difficult part of GDPR
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by arianvanp on Friday May 18, 2018 @03:46AM (#17099428)
Not that's irrelevant in this case. The question is whether you're processing sentive PII on a large scale. DPO is only necessary when processing sensitive PII. Sensitive is very clearly defined in the law as race, religion, medical records or biometric data. And IP addresses certainly do not qualify as sensitive PII (they are PII though) so I don't understand the entire discussion here. Seems to be just a political kneejerk
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by kaspm on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:34AM (#17102288)
That's fair in this case, at my company we track "pregnancy status" and "due date". It's unclear at this point whether that's considered sensitive PII.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by zmmmmm on Thursday May 17, 2018 @10:07PM (#17098106)
XMPP does have presence functionality so I'd consider that to be systematic monitoring. I don't know if his service is doing that, but it's one of the most useful aspects and definitely seems to fit the definition to me.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by DanBC on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:03PM (#17095780)
No. That article says you only need a DPO if you're a public authority or if you're processing certain data or you're processing very large amounts of data.

I'm struggling to understand why that's unclear. Is it the use of "public authority or body"?

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by CobrastanJorji on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:13PM (#17095906)
Monal is an XMPP chat system. User's messages are user data, and everything it does is processing that data, in the form of broadcasting it. I suppose as long as the data doesn't count as "very large", that'd be fine, but what does very large mean?
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by DanBC on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:23PM (#17096024)
He's not monitoring the data.

He's not handling sensitive personal data.

He doesn't need a DPO.

See also the derogation for micro companies:

https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-13/

> To take account of the specific situation of micro, small and medium-sized enterprises, this Regulation includes a derogation for organisations with fewer than 250 employees with regard to record-keeping.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by JangoSteve on Thursday May 17, 2018 @07:03PM (#17096934)
For some reason, I can't reply to Max_aaa's question directly.

> How do you guaranty that nothing in the messages being handled by the server is "sensitive personal data".

You guarantee it by reading the rest of GDPR. It defines sensitive personal data separately than personal data. Sensitive personal data is defined by GDPR to be things that can be used to discriminate against the individual, such as race, ethnicity, religion, health information, credit information, age, etc.

EDIT: And what I mean to say is that if the messages aren't passing through the server or being stored on the servers, then the only info being handled by the server is the meta-data including IP address, which is not included in GDPR's definition of _sensitive_ personal data.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by Max_aaa on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:55PM (#17096868)
> He's not handling sensitive personal data.

How do you guaranty that nothing in the messages being handled by the server is "sensitive personal data".

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by stordoff on Thursday May 17, 2018 @07:07PM (#17096964)
You can guarantee that because the messages aren't handled by the server: "Even though no message traffic passes through Monal’s sever".
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by beberlei on Thursday May 17, 2018 @10:03PM (#17098091)
This is an important point.

Example: Parts of our software run on customer servers and as such they are processing data in their control and not ours, hence can for example used to filter out personal data before they are then sent to our servers, without causing any GDPR related triggering of sending personal information to a third party (our company).

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by dragonwriter on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:39PM (#17096181)
It's not “processing user data on a large scale” that requires a DPO, but “processing on a large scale of special categories of data pursuant to Article 9 and personal data relating to criminal convictions and offences referred to in Article 10.”
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by Hamuko on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:25PM (#17096047)
>Even though no message traffic passes through Monal’s sever

Sounds to me like they are not a) processing b) collecting message data.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by stordoff on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:10PM (#17096496)
AFAICT, it's not a public authority or body (37(1)(a)), it's not "regular and systematic monitoring of data subjects on a large scale" (37(1)(b)) (it seems to be merely crash reports and minimal information required for the service, not systematic monitoring), nor is it one of the special classes of data (37(1)(c)). I'm not sure how you could could conclude a DPO is necessary.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by tomelders on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:49PM (#17096279)
I suspect it's going to be a bit like IR35 in the UK. Menacing on first glance, but so broad in it's definition that any court is going to struggle to draw the hard conclusions for anything that isn't what the law was explicitly created to prevent.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by rocqua on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:17PM (#17096550)
Having to rely so much on the discretion of the courts is not a good thing. Generally, it is better if all people who agree on what happened agree about the legality of that.

When instead it is up for interpretation, that comes with issues. The first is selective enforcement, there is also the chilling effect on both sides. Those who ought to be protected worry about the slack given to their potential predators. Meanwhile those who are 'potential predators' need to worry about the slightest move that is illegal under some interpretation.

The end result of this chilling effect is fewer willing customers, fever willing companies, and less mutual trust. Notably, this lack of trust persists even if you presume everyone still follows the law. At that point it seems to me a law has failed.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by tomelders on Monday May 21, 2018 @08:21PM (#17122926)
I don’t agree. All laws are up for interpretation. That’s why we have the judiciary. Law makers draft laws, courts decide where those laws fit into the wider body of law.

The kind of law making you’re implicitly advocating is tantamount to despotism. Drafting a law that outlaws islam might well be clear in it’s wording, but it needs to be tested against the law that allows freedom of religion, freedom from persecution, and a ton of other laws no doubt. The claritiy of language with which a ban on islam is articulated is all for nought if it’s contradicted by, and incompatible with other laws.

Although, GDPR has been explained very clearly. And we’ve been given a loooong time to digest, understand, implement, and question it. I don’t think any reasoable person can make a compelling case against GDPR. But unreasonable people can, and as we’re seeing, they will.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by raverbashing on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:02PM (#17095772)
Companies with less than 250 workers have fewer requirements, but the obligation of a DPO follows a different set of rules https://gdpr-info.eu/art-37-gdpr/

Edit: Art 30 "The obligations referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 shall not apply to an enterprise or an organisation employing fewer than 250 persons unless the processing it carries out is likely to result in a risk to the rights and freedoms of data subjects, the processing is not occasional, or the processing includes special categories of data as referred to in Article 9(1) or personal data relating to criminal convictions and offences referred to in Article 10."

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ThePhysicist on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:12PM (#17095887)
This was in one of the earlier drafts of the GDPR but was removed, so you can be required to appoint a DPO if you are a small startup as well, but only if one of the conditions mentioned in article 37 applies to you (which I think doesn't to the OP).
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by jimnotgym on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:08PM (#17095843)
I'm not sure this is always true. If you were collecting "sensitive" data (like race) or profiling people you may need a DPO
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by Hamuko on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:07PM (#17095822)
This sounds like absolute bullshit.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by BillinghamJ on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:11PM (#17095886)
Yes it is bollocks, but the fact that Monal wouldn't need a DPO if they were based in the EU is true.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...

Recording IP addresses in a web server log does not qualify as "regular and systematic monitoring of data subjects on a large scale" by any stretch of any definition.

And that's besides the fact that they don't have any presence in the EU. GDPR's scope only includes companies with at least some presence in the EU. That's not just because it'd be unenforceable - the laws make no attempt to include a wider scope than that.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by BinaryIdiot on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:59PM (#17095721)
Even if he was _required_ to appoint one (which I don't see how he is), he can appointment himself to do it. It's really not a huge deal...
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by CobrastanJorji on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:01PM (#17095752)
I don't think he can. The DPO may not be assigned any tasks that would result in a conflict of interest between their role as a DPO and their other responsibilities. I suspect that means that the sole proprietor can't be the DPO. But, you know, not a lawyer, not even European, could be wrong. See article 38, paragraph 6, 2nd sentence.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by s_dev on Friday May 18, 2018 @09:59AM (#17101486)
Sole proprietor has to be the DPO in that instance.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by BinaryIdiot on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:07PM (#17095830)
Yup, I read that and I don't see how it would be in the conflict of interest for probably the vast majority of cases. But, yeah, I'm not a lawyer too.

Edit: DPO Network says this which I think is a pretty good summary (though it's not part of the explicit legal policy, it's someone's opinion)

> CAN WE ASSIGN ONE OF OUR EMPLOYEES AS OUR DPO?​​​

> Yes. However, you must ensure that other professional duties of this employee must be compatible with his/her new duties as DPO and do not result in a conflict of interests.

https://www.dponetwork.eu/faqs.html

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ucaetano on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:22PM (#17096023)
> I read that and I don't see how it would be in the conflict of interest for probably the vast majority of cases

Being the sole owner and manager and being the DPO is clearly a conflict of interest.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by netsharc on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:59PM (#17096394)
If you're Zuck or anyone working for FB, that'd be true. But what if one of my interests in running my company is the protection of my users' data?
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ucaetano on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:12PM (#17096518)
Can you imagine yourself trying to convince a regulator of that?
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by netsharc on Thursday May 17, 2018 @08:21PM (#17097545)
Like Zuck before senate?

I imagine when running a business one faces many stupid bureaucrats, this could be another one (or they could be competent and understand and accept the technical explanation of how my imaginary company complies with GDPR).

But yeah, why quit because of the n + 1th bureaucrat, when you've dealt with n of them while starting and running of your business?

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ucaetano on Thursday May 17, 2018 @09:13PM (#17097826)
> Like Zuck before senate?

No, like Google, Microsoft and Intel before the European Commission.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by BinaryIdiot on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:11PM (#17096505)
> Being the sole owner and manager and being the DPO is clearly a conflict of interest.

Could you clarify why you think this is so? As an owner, my interests would align with the DPO's interests so it's hard to me to find where the conflict of interest would reside in the case of being the sole employee _and_ DPO.

Now if it's a large company where they make money per GDPR policy workaround then I could see it being required another person than the owner, but it could still certainly be an employee.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ucaetano on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:29PM (#17103767)
No, as an owner your interests do not necessarily align with the DPO. They might, but they do no necessarily.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by lagadu on Friday May 18, 2018 @06:41AM (#17100329)
If you're selling your stored PII to third parties without user consent then yes, it would be.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by stordoff on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:22PM (#17096602)
I would say there is a definite conflict of interest for the sole owner to be the DPO - you are responsible for the entire direction of the company, thus have considerations beyond data protection (rather than an individual who ONLY has to consider the data protection outcomes in the exercise of his duties). Even if you make data protection a paramount concern, and intend to be fully compliant, there is the possibility that you could e.g. make more money or provide a better service by making a different choice, therefore there is a conflict of interest.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ThePhysicist on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:13PM (#17095909)
That's not possible as the DPO must not have any conflict of interest (https://gdpr.dpkit.com/gdpr/chapter-iv/section-4/article-38....), so he/she cannot be an owner or executive of the company.
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by quietdean on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:30PM (#17096092)
That's a big assumption. In an executive/owner role where, say, you are the CTO, surely data protection (and therefore the risks and penalties involved in controlling this data) are a core concern? Owning or being in an executive position seems to me to be an investment of interest, not a conflict.

And even if such a conflict does arise, as it surely will somewhere, the text linked states that the controller and processor shall ensure that such a conflict does not exist. It does not say that "You can't do this because 'conflict of interest'", it just says those two roles will ensure there will be no conflict of interest. If you read all the guidance, you will see that the DPO is the most protected role. It has the least liability. The data controller and processor have their own responsibilities, from a liability pov.

Unless you are the business owner/executive, DPO, data controller and data processor...I can't see this being a conflict of interest. Ever.

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by ThePhysicist on Friday May 18, 2018 @03:19AM (#17099319)
I don't think it's a big assumption as the law as well as the guidelines clearly state that point (from "Guidelines on Data Protection Officers" [1] by WP29, pages 16 ff.):

> The absence of conflict of interests is closely linked to the requirement to act in an independent manner. Although DPOs are allowed to have other functions, they can only be entrusted with other tasks and duties provided that these do not give rise to conflicts of interests. This entails in particular that the DPO cannot hold a position within the organisation that leads him or her to determine the purposes and the means of the processing of personal data. Due to the specific organisational structure in each organisation, this has to be considered case by case.

> As a rule of thumb, conflicting positions within the organisation may include senior management positions (such as chief executive, chief operating, chief financial, chief medical officer, head of marketing department, head of Human Resources or head of IT departments) but also other roles lower down in the organisational structure if such positions or roles lead to the determination of purposes and means of processing. In addition, a conflict of interests may also arise for example if an external DPO is asked to represent the controller or processor before the Courts in cases involving data protection issues.

In summary, if you have power to decide how or for what purposes the processing of the data is to be carried out you're probably not allowed to serve as DPO. Of course in the end it's the company's decision who to give that role to, but not following the guidelines increases the chance of non-compliance.

1: http://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/article29/item-detail.cfm?item_...

Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by superzadeh on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:21AM (#17099120)
Younneed a DPO if you 10 employees or more. Fornhiavcase, he most likely just needs to update his privacy policy and have a form to collect users requests (like TypeForm) and make sure that he handles them (event if it's manually deletion in database).
Re:GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU by jacquesm on Thursday May 17, 2018 @06:18PM (#17096571)
A designated DPO is a ROLE not a person, that's a huge difference. Just like a security officer in a small company is a role assigned to someone who most likely has other duties too in a large company it will be a dedicated person (and in a really large company there might even be more people working in a team under a CISO or something to that effect). So 'designated' means that the role has to be assigned to a person, it does not say 'dedicated' where you'd have to have a person whose exclusive job is DPO.

So, DPO is not necessarily a person with no other duties. In most smaller organizations that deal with sensitive data the DPO role will be shared with the CCO (Chief Compliance Officer), only at a certain scale of processing and with certain data would you need to budget for a dedicated DPO from day one, but presumably your business plan will also foresee in other things such as office space, computers and so on. Certain businesses come with implied costs.