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Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by mieseratte on Thursday May 17, 2018 @03:51PM (#17094912)
> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example.

We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the right kinds of advanced folks.

The problem is we are also unwilling to do what needs to be done to stem the tide of unskilled illegal labor that flows into the nation.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by dv_dt on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:53PM (#17095637)
I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier...

Though I would add that doing it via a more realistic temporary work visa program would be preferable to encouraging an illegal crossing industry to flourish.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by mieseratte on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:20PM (#17095993)
> I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people

You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves.

Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers.

The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by rubicon33 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:01PM (#17095026)
The biggest counter argument I hear, regularly, is that the "tide" of illegal labor you speak of is NECESSARY.

Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc.

It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by mieseratte on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:42PM (#17095497)
> Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc.

There is a seasonal / migrant worker visa for this reason. For instance, near me, Kiawah Island's resorts are partly staffed with Jamaican guest workers because the seasonal nature of the job. In high school I worked as a bagger at a grocery store on another island that was incredibly seasonal, so we had Russian guest workers during the summers.

Some jobs probably just wouldn't get done without either A) a wage increase or B) guest workers, e.g. particularly brutal agricultural tasks. We can allow the necessary workforce in for these tasks if need be.

> It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.

The poor.

Having grown up in an area with a large Hispanic influx, they did. I currently live in an area with little to no Hispanics, but we do have a lot of poor African-Americans. They do the jobs I grew up seeing Central and South Americans work.

The problem with the illegal influx from southern nations, is they can also crowd out native blue collar markets by working for less, and are willing to live an impoverished standard of living. We should not be forsaking our own countrymen so we can get cheap lawn care from a wage-slave underclass living in third-world conditions on American soil.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by tobylane on Friday May 18, 2018 @04:30AM (#17099639)
The seasonal worker visa is talked about for Brexit. The people who need the workers, the fruit farmers, say it's far too much effort and isn't workable.

The poor here just aren't willing to do that work at that price. The supermarkets aren't willing to pay more for the produce. Something has to give and in both countries I'm sure it's going to be the rules on visas.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by pixl97 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:24PM (#17095305)
>Who will pick strawberries?

Let's frame this a different way...

"Who will actually spend the money to develop a strawberry picking machine when there are piles of people that are willing to do it for below minimum wage and no health care?"

Having some group you use at near slave labor status can hold back technological innovation.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by robotrout on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:09PM (#17095128)
If we decide that we are no longer able to exploit desperate immigrants to pick our crops, than the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper.

All you're doing by continuing the exploitation is keeping such automation from being developed, as you rob it of it's market.

It is so predictable that the whole "but what about the farmers" is touted as a reason to flaunt immigration laws. The farmers are not owed such a subsidy by the American people. They will adapt if they are forced to. They would be stupid to do so before they are forced to.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by slg on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:16PM (#17095219)
>the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper.

Sure, and who cares about the people who can't afford food in the meantime while we wait for the new Eli Whitney? You are proposing fixing one problem by creating numerous more problems.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by robotrout on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:26PM (#17095329)
I would be interested in your estimates of how much you believe produce prices would actually rise if farm workers were paid non-exploitative wages. I would also remind you that many of these poor people would be the ones receiving that higher wage.
Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by slg on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:39PM (#17095453)
Prices would only go up marginally a few percentage points, but that can be enough to break certain budgets especially when fresh food like this is already more expensive than processed and unhealthy alternatives.

You also shouldn't treat poor people as a single group. Yes, some poor people will be receiving these higher wages but no all. There are still people lost in the transition just like there would be people lost in the transition waiting for innovation from Eli Whitney.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by jessaustin on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:21PM (#17095272)
Pretty soon, it will be the robots. That could be bad from a humanitarian perspective, but they won't defecate on the lettuce fields.
Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by xienze on Thursday May 17, 2018 @05:07PM (#17095825)
> Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc.

1859: But who will pick cotton? Perform household chores?

We will either develop a technological solution or gasp the wages and benefits for picking strawberries will rise to such a point that it makes sense to pick that up as a career choice.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by jandrese on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:44PM (#17095524)
Kicking people out because there might be a robot to take their job in the future seems like putting the cart in front of the horse.
Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by bryanlarsen on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:08PM (#17095113)
The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been dropping for the past decade.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-...

The biggest reason for that IMO is because Mexico has been doing relatively well over the past couple of decades. You don't attempt a very risky illegal crossing if you can get a job and support your family where you are.

The repeal of NAFTA will restart the immigration wave as the Mexican economy tanks.

Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by nradov on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:33PM (#17095393)
Some parts of NAFTA might eventually be renegotiated but it won't be repealed any time soon. In the USA it was implemented as a federal law (not a treaty or executive agreement) and there is very little Congressional support for a repeal.
Re:US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further ... by pasquinelli on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:08PM (#17095112)
what needs to be done? when labor isn't in high enough demand the tide will stem itself.