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Re:The Axis Of Eval: Why I ignore Clojure by mhd on Monday September 20, 2010 @10:10AM (#1708842)
This article makes it seem like Lisp is in a state of continuous evolution. In which case I don't see a good enough argument why Clojure isn't part of that.

Even more so, it kinda reads like there's one huge mainstream evolutionary branch of Lisp since time immemorial, and off-shoots are quickly reabsorbed into this. Never mind the multitudes of lisps and especially the constant Scheme-CL schism…

I understand perfectly why fans of Common Lisp won't switch, but considering CL as the head of a constantly evolving Lisp with a capital L seems a bit silly.

There's either no "Lisp", or Clojure is as much a part of it as CL is.

Re:The Axis Of Eval: Why I ignore Clojure by rwl on Monday September 20, 2010 @10:48AM (#1708994)
> This article makes it seem like Lisp is in a state of continuous evolution. In which case I don't see a good enough argument why Clojure isn't part of that.

That's because the author isn't saying that. The point is more like this: Clojure is a series of new mutations, and they haven't been around long enough yet to tell whether any of them will survive natural selection. We can't tell Clojure's good ideas from its merely new ideas at this stage; we have to wait for evolution to take place. That doesn't mean Clojure is doing something wrong (after all, "Everyone should be writing new Lisps!"). I think the author is just saying it's not worth getting too excited about until we know what it's doing right.

Re:The Axis Of Eval: Why I ignore Clojure by mhd on Monday September 20, 2010 @11:02AM (#1709053)
The problem with evolution in general is that it doesn't select the best approaches, it selects the most popular ones. So if you ignore the current 'mutations', you're basically trust that the community will "do the right thing". Which I regard as rather optimistic (as is the assumption that it always did this in the past).
Re:The Axis Of Eval: Why I ignore Clojure by rwl on Monday September 20, 2010 @10:12PM (#1711215)
> The problem with evolution in general is that it doesn't select the best approaches, it selects the most popular ones.

Not sure what you mean by this. At least in a biological setting, natural selection selects for `adaptive' features, i.e., those which best solve some problem that an organism has. (OK, it's more complicated than that, but let's take that as a working definition.) It does not select `popular' features. Rather, features become popular because they are adaptive and hence selected for.

Now, programming language evolution may not always work like biological evolution, and in both cases there may be other selection pressures at work. But I don't see a reason to think that, insofar as programming language evolution is like biological evolution, the `natural selection' of language features by the community would favor what's arbitrarily popular, instead of what's best at solving a common problem.

Re:The Axis Of Eval: Why I ignore Clojure by lispm on Monday September 20, 2010 @10:27AM (#1708911)
The main branch is Lisp, Lisp 1.5, MacLisp, Lisp Machine Lisp, Common Lisp. The evolution of that branch is now more in libraries and with individual implementations. It also got excellent implementations where all the low-hanging fruit is gone (Means easy improvements are no longer possible). For the community it is more difficult to improve the SBCL compiler, because it is already a substantial Lisp program. Still, if you look at the repository quite a few people add improvements to it.

There is Scheme, where there is still some research and evolution going on. See the work on R7RS and implementations like Racket.