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Re:Has wine gone bad? by ravenstine on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:57PM (#17077297)
Are there any studies that show how reliably people can perceive these subtle notes?
Re:Has wine gone bad? by skywhopper on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @06:57PM (#17078635)
Such flavors in beer are often far more pronounced than in wine. The bananas and cloves thing is not subtle, and a lot of the chemicals involved are actually the same, so it's no surprise the taste is there.

In wine, the words for flavors are often not meant to be exact. Because there _are_ no direct analogues to the flavors. So you have to try to communicate using words people do know. And if that turns inward and jargony, that's simply how language functions in any community.

It should be no surprise that people experience flavors differently, so of course ratings will vary and descriptions will contradict each other. If apples or hamburgers or spring water were reviewed with the detail and scrutiny that wine is, you'd get the same results. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to communicate with each other about the experience of drinking the wine. Sure, it's almost entirely subjective. No wine expert will disagree with that.

Re:Has wine gone bad? by gascan on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:40PM (#17078101)
I'm not quite sure how to answer you. It really depends on how the drink was made. These chemicals can be so overwhelming they punch you in the nose and make it undrinkable (I've made a few of those), they can be virtually absent, or anywhere inbetween.

The pragmatic answer to what I think you are asking is basically- in the wine world, a very few people have proven they really can distinguish just about anything. For ordinary people, you can appreciate the notes with training, but probably can't pass a blindfold test on closely related wines.

Re:Has wine gone bad? by bgribble on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:46PM (#17077725)
For wine at least, any sommelier at a high-end restaurant has been through a course that you don't pass until you can perceive them. I know a couple of people who have been through it, it's for real. They teach very specific sensory cues and you practice a lot. There are certainly wines that can confuse even a trained person but for the most part it's not magic.
Re:Has wine gone bad? by amyjess on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:15PM (#17077490)
Go drink a Hefeweizen and tell me what you think. I recommend something by Ayinger. Though chances are most American supermarkets will just have Franziskaner, which is perfectly fine if you can't find Ayinger (note: avoid American examples, even if they call themselves "Hefeweizen". American wheat beers are a totally different style and lack the banana and clove notes of German Hefeweizen).

It's not subtle. At all. Hefeweizen contains large amounts of both banana esters and clove phenols, and drinking one is like drinking spicy banana bread. The first time I had one, it was so different from everything I had before that that it was outright jarring (this was shortly after I turned 21, before I knew much about beer).

Re:Has wine gone bad? by arca_vorago on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @07:28PM (#17078767)
Hofbrau is imho the best Hefe that is easily available in the states.

My story is I spent about a year trying to get into wine... admitedly for the slightly shallow goal of impressing women, and then I spent a summer in Germany with some family and came back a beer aficionado, and haven't looked back since. The American craft scene has exploded since then and it's easy to find phenomenal beers here. (though good german/belgium imports are still my goto)

I have, however, been learning how to cook (I can not thank blue apron enough), and have been really enjoying using wine in my cooking. The main wines I still drink are port, madeira, pino, and icewine.

Re:Has wine gone bad? by lutorm on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @09:44PM (#17079358)
My personal favorite is Paulaner. Erdinger is also good, but in general any German hefeweizen way surpasses any American wheat. The closest I've found is Widmer. And as far as I know there are no US examples of Dunkel Weizen, the dark German wheat beer.
Re:Has wine gone bad? by greglindahl on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @10:08PM (#17079477)
I dislike hefewizen in general, I'm just a dark beer kind of guy, but OH MY GOD Erdinger Dunkel Weizen is amazing, and it's become fairly easy to find in the US.
Re:Has wine gone bad? by dbrgn on Thursday May 17, 2018 @03:15PM (#17094556)
I totally agree. The Erdinger Dunkel is so much better than the "regular" version!
Re:Has wine gone bad? by rdtsc on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @10:12PM (#17079501)
> My personal favorite is Paulaner.

Mine too. I got it on sale I think at Costco or some place like that on a whim. It tasted very different than most American wheat beers.

Re:Has wine gone bad? by kawfey on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @06:05PM (#17078320)
This, except I first tried a hefe and noticed the banana bread flavor in Public House Brewery's Hefeweizen, which is a US brewery. Its a flavor present in every hefe I've drank and brewed myself, but I won't argue the fact German Hefe's are a whole nother level of flavor.
Re:Has wine gone bad? by amyjess on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:57AM (#17082366)
The reason why I mentioned avoiding US breweries was because of the American Wheat Beer style [0], which is very different from an actual Hefe, and unfortunately some AWBs use "Hefeweizen" in the brand name (e.g. Widmer, and I think Pyramid too).

Of course there are some US breweries who brew to the German style, and I'll take your word for it that Public House Brewery does, but my suggestion of avoiding US breweries was aimed at someone who isn't familiar with beer at all and probably wouldn't take nearly as well to "pull out your phone and Google every example you see in the supermarket to make sure it's a proper Hefe and not an AWB" as they would to "look at the label and see if the brewery is German".

[0] http://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/1/1D/american-wheat-beer/

Re:Has wine gone bad? by zrobotics on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @06:05PM (#17078318)
I wouldn't call them subtle, at least in the context of a screwed up batch of homebrew beer. I've certainly poured out a batch that tasted so strongly of bananas that it was undrinkable.
Re:Has wine gone bad? by pfranz on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @02:53AM (#17080474)
What he's talking about isn't usually subtle. I think the confusing part is when he's saying "bananas" or "cloves" it's a very distinctive flavor that's reminiscent of those things. That's just the closest flavor we can put a name to. Very fresh, well brewed coffee has a "cherry" flavor...it's not cherry, but is distinctive. These all come from a measurable chemical that can be reliably and consistently perceived.

Separate from that are the more subtle, more subjective flavors. I see it in beer descriptions, but they seem to be more ingrained and taken more seriously with wine.

Re:Has wine gone bad? by cascom on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:52PM (#17078200)
I don’t know about studies - but the people who are master sommeliers that can do incredible blind tastings consistently give me comfort that it’s not all hocus pocus