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Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @01:43PM (#17075924)
That's the thing isn't it ? They can't do anything alone.

It always amazes me that those big entities exist, because they require such a huge highly educated and skilled human power. What are all those genius at the NSA thinking ? I can't imagine somebody smart enough to work here is not smart enough to understand the consequences of working there. So why are they not quitting ?

Social pressure and money are part of the equation, certainly. I remember when I turned down a Google interview, my close circle though it was weird that I did that, even more for ethical reason.

Having the best toys, budgets and projects certainly helps as well.

But still, I wonder.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by relics443 on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @01:52PM (#17076045)
Have you considered that there are people out there with values that differ from yours? It's not wildly impossible, regardless of what the screaming minority would have you believe.

Maybe they don't have a problem with working on such projects, because they agree with their end goal?

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:01PM (#17076129)
Ocam's razor, so yes.

I learned very young there are differences, like I literally (NOT figurative at all) couldn't see the motivation behind destroying school equipment, drawing on walls, etc. While for some, it's fun.

But even after all those years, it's just so hard to wrap my head around that.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by vokep on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:31PM (#17076394)
They probably understand others have different values. The confusion is, some values seem so self evident that its bewildering anyone with a certain level of intelligence wouldn't realize the same values.

I think the answer might be that they do have the same values, but they have a different model of the world overall, which calls for different ways of achieving those values.

To take this to an extreme, imagine a person fighting for their life against actual criminals threatening vs a person fighting for their life against a random person they think is a shape-shifting alien impostor. Both are internally justified by the same values, one is externally justified by a more correct perception of reality.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:38PM (#17078094)
How can you tell that your perception of reality is more "correct" than mine?
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:46PM (#17076550)
Ah, those are the words I have been missing. Thank you.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by refurb on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:06PM (#17076755)
I'm glad someone made this comment. It blows me away when people think their set of values is the only "right" way to think and anyone else who has a different set of values is obviously damaged or doing it unwillingly.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by pandaman on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:19PM (#17076910)
There is nothing extraordinary or even unusual in this. It's basic tribalism: my tribe is made from virtuous people who are also smart and beautiful, the enemy tribe, on the other hand, consists of deformed degenerates with the room temperature IQ.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:31PM (#17077039)
No you see you imply that I've given a value to the people here. Which is not at all what I said.

I exactly said I can't understand the line of thinking that leads to the decision. That's pretty much all.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by pandaman on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:21PM (#17077544)
Did not you imply that smart people cannot possibly be in the other tribe so there has to be some reason why your tribe members are not quitting the enemy tribe cause?
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:39PM (#17077670)
I never used anything close to "cannot possibly". I said I could not understand. I used the words "why" and "I wonder". It's very clear. It's not ambiguous. But you seem very attached to your tribe theory, so you want my past comment to fit your present view.

And it's a very conflicting view of the word too. Do you see us as enemies as well ?

In which case, you win this argument. I don't want my tribe to fight yours.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by pandaman on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:52PM (#17077774)
Sorry, then, if you didn't want to say that then I don't understand why you posted your message at all. It then literally amounts to "I cannot understand other people motivation" and all the references to intellect and understanding consequences and shiny toys are irrelevant.

As for myself being tribal - it's very hard to observe tribalism in oneself so, while I am not seeing it, I can very well be.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:25PM (#17076956)
Well, let's say suddenly you learn a community of elite thinkers eat babies and think it's good way to control population.

You'd be baffled, wouldn't you ?

It's not a matter of morality, of good or bad, or right or wrong.

I understand the difference exists. It just feels so alien to me I can't get to form the mental model that helps me understand what thinking lead to this behavior.

Also, read the other comments, we answered your points already.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by refurb on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:49PM (#17077217)
you learn a community of elite thinkers eat babies

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but you're saying that if anyone holds an opinion different than yours your reaction is the same as if they thought "eating babies" was OK?

Things aren't that black and white. People can hold opinions different than your and you can withhold judgement.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:34PM (#17077634)
They just have a different opinion on eating babies. People can hold opinions different than your and you can withhold judgement.

See again, you add morality in the equation, talking about black and white. But morality is arbitrary. You can draw the line anywhere, one inch to left or the right, and so on, indefinitely.

So that's not what I said.

What I said was "I can't understand".

Not "it should not be" or "it's impossible" or "they are bad people".

Apparently, you have difficulty to understand that somebody can't understand.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by Sharlin on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:10PM (#17076203)
It's literally the same thing that allowed concentration camps to happen. Or, in the words of the late Sir Terence:

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.”

— Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @01:47PM (#17075983)
Arguably the majority supports the ideological foundations, aims, and methods of the institutions you are speaking of. In particular the military and intelligence institutions. If they didn't, they would have been removed by vote or force some time ago.

Frankly the broad majority of people in the US benefit materially in some way from their existence in ways that they might not even be fully aware of.

I am not arguing this is a good thing, but I think it's a reality. Military power abroad means wealth accumulation at home.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:06PM (#17076165)
Interesting. I have absolutely zero ethical concerns with Google building a drone which can more accurately target someone. I'm also perfectly fine with US government using those drones to kill bad guys.

Now if they use it to kill good guys, then it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:12PM (#17076221)
Yeah but your good guys and their good guys will not be the same for ever.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:14PM (#17077925)
If that ever happens, I will protest them killing good guys, rather than protest them having advanced weapons.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by soVeryTired on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:16PM (#17077945)
How does one determine who's a good guy and who's a bad guy?

I would have thought most people are somewhere in between.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:22PM (#17077977)
So far, the people they kill are very much in line with my definition of "bad guys" (e.g. bin Laden).
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by mmjaa on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @02:51AM (#17080466)
Are you paying attention to how many "good guys" are being killed by 'your side' daily? Because thats more important than your other stat.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by soVeryTired on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:32PM (#17078043)
I don't think you're really engaging with my point.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:42PM (#17078119)
Yes, most people are somewhere in between. What's your point?
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by soVeryTired on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @06:04PM (#17078314)
My point is that it's not at all easy to determine who's 'good' and who's 'bad'. In fact I think those are extremely simplistic labels to tag people with, expecially when discussing what could amount to summary execution.

Is an enemy combatant with a weapon a bad guy? How about an unarmed enemy combatant? How about an enemy combatant with just a knife, or a rudimentary club? How about an armed civilian who might be an enemy combatant?

Is a bank robber a bad guy? If so, do they deserve to die? How about a white-collar fraudster? How about someone running from the police? How about a mentally ill person running from the police?

This stuff is never clear cut. It's why we have courts and military tribunals. If you can't think beyond 'good guys' and 'bad guys', I don't respect your opinion.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @06:28PM (#17078472)
I'm still not sure what your point is. Are you saying that people in US government/military/etc who decide who to kill make bad decisions? If so, give some examples, and suggest how we can improve the situation.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by mmjaa on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @02:51AM (#17080469)
http://airwars.org/

Pay attention to the facts behind the curtain.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:14AM (#17082093)
This is the main reason why we need more intelligent weapons - to minimize civilian casualties.
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by dorgo on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @04:41PM (#17077682)
Is Snowden a good guy?

My government did enough stupid things for me to not want them to have sophisticated military toys.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by p1esk on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @05:08PM (#17077877)
Is Snowden a good guy?

Debatable, but regardless - do you think the reason US government have not killed Snowden is the lack of "sophisticated military toys"?

Also, my government did enough stupid things (like killing innocent people in war zones by mistake) for me to want them to have more intelligent weapons.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by jerf on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:55PM (#17076638)
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario in which the majority, or even the strong majority, of each nation disapproves of its own military or intelligence techniques, but nevertheless nothing can change because any nation that unilaterally drops some questionable technique (and don't just think "torture" here, but "excessive surveillance of the home population" and such) pays penalties vs. the other nations and experiences no benefit, making it very difficult for even one nation to climb the resulting gradient, let alone the entire world.

It's a hard problem, and most glib solutions are, well, just that, glib. Centralized agreements become increasingly difficult as the number of entities increase, for instance, even before we account for scenarios like this where the reward for defection increases proportionally to the number of other participants in the disarmament.

This is also ignoring those cases where there isn't even disagreement; in the real world, for instance, while you can quibble about the exact lines it seems to be the case that the Chinese accept and approve of levels of "invasive government" (to use a Western spin on the idea; I don't know what they would call it exactly) that Magna Carta-descended countries would consider abhorrent, making coordination even harder. (Meanwhile, they consider our lack of coordination or whathaveyou, if not "abhorrent", at the very least "sub-optimal", and possible dangerously socially negligent. As I'm using English here and, like I said, I don't know what they'd call it exactly, I can't help a bit of a Western spin here, but I acknowledge the flip side.)

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by sametmax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:03PM (#17076142)
> Frankly the broad majority of people in the US benefit materially in some way from their existence in ways that they might not even be fully aware of.

No argument here, having a strong bully in the room is good for you when he is on your side.

Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by rixrax on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @03:32PM (#17077045)
What about all the open source? I'l hazard that that quite a few instruments of war and mayhem run on FOSS. Is there a moral dilemma there? Should FOSS licenses make provisions for the type of use packages can be used for (I believe they should)?
Re:Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI p... by iblo66 on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @02:20PM (#17076297)
>So why are they not quitting ?

Because not everybody thinks the way you do. That's why we have elections.