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Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by mistrial9 on Friday May 11, 2018 @08:15PM (#17051649)
the land that is now the United States of America, started in fractured parts by many, very different, groups of people. Please do not throw the entire USA into the history of slavery -- many abhorred the practice at every stage, while others did not, and used it to varying extents. A whitewash of history is unfair, but to tar all peoples with the stain of slavery is, as well.
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by vhudud on Friday May 11, 2018 @08:29PM (#17051713)
>Please do not throw the entire USA into the history of slavery

Ummm... Are you serious? The economy of the early usa was heavily dependent on slavery. It has had a far reaching impact on our demography, our culture, and our politics to this day. Every american, even today, feels that impact.(black people are still facing discrimination, unequal treatment by police, generational poverty, and the lingering effects of white flight and urban decay) The existence of abolitionists alone does not erase the stain of slavery, as you say. You can't tell the story of America without slavery. And if youre american, its part of your history.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by patrickg_zill on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:22PM (#17052149)
Citation please, or at least a numeric definition of "heavily dependant".
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by macintux on Saturday May 12, 2018 @12:35AM (#17052493)
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by patrickg_zill on Saturday May 12, 2018 @04:48AM (#17053100)
Your first link has exactly zero value in determining the economic value of contributions.

Your second link has this paragraph

"The answer is "0"; slavery did not create a major share of the capital that financed the European industrial revolution. The combined profits of the slave trade and West Indian plantations did not add up to five percent of Britain's national income at the time of the industrial revolution."

So I am confused about what I am supposed to take away from the links you gave.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by wutbrodo on Saturday May 12, 2018 @05:58AM (#17053303)
Holy crap, this is a breathtakingly dishonest answer. Regardless of the topic, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so comfortable with intellectual dishonesty.

The quote you cite explicitly talks about the _European_ industrial revolution. The _very next sentence_ says:

>. Nevertheless, slavery was indispensable to European development of the New World. It is inconceivable that European colonists could have settled and developed North and South America and the Caribbean without slave labor

Even more to the point, a couple sentences later:

> In the pre-Civil War United States, a stronger case can be made that slavery played a critical role in economic development. One crop, slave-grown cotton, provided over half of all US export earnings. By 1840, the South grew 60 percent of the world's cotton and provided some 70 percent of the cotton consumed by the British textile industry. Thus slavery paid for a substantial share of the capital, iron, and manufactured goods that laid the basis for American economic growth. In addition, precisely because the South specialized in cotton production, the North developed a variety of businesses that provided services for the slave South, including textile factories, a meat processing industry, insurance companies, shippers, and cotton brokers.

Given that we're talking precisely about "the economy of the early usa", this is the relevant perspective.

Again, shame on you

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by patrickg_zill on Saturday May 12, 2018 @08:08AM (#17053659)
Read the original post I responded to. Britain's 5 per cent is not "heavily dependant". American development was different.

The demographics are not in dispute: at no point in time did the US have more than 23% of the population be African Americans.

So even assuming they all worked exactly as hard as all others (and that 100% were enslaved), the share is "23%".

So is that "heavily dependant" given that 77% of the output is not from that source? I would point out that cotton was a raw material crop, while the Northern development was a mix of agriculture and industry.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by vhudud on Saturday May 12, 2018 @10:07AM (#17054129)
> In the pre-Civil War United States, a stronger case can be made that slavery played a critical role in economic development. One crop, slave-grown cotton, provided over half of all US export earnings.

>thus slavery paid for a substantial share of the capital, iron, and manufactured goods that laid the basis for American economic growth. In addition, precisely because the South specialized in cotton production, the North developed a variety of businesses that provided services for the slave South, including textile factories, a meat processing industry, insurance companies, shippers, and cotton brokers.

These two quotes prove my claim. Slave grown crops were a large part of the usa's exports and even in states without slaves, industry depended on the plantation system in some way. I think its reasonable to say the us economy heavily depended on slavery for that reason. Either you are expending an extraordinary amount of effort nitpicking the semantics of "heavily" or you're knowlingly deluding yourself to avoid facing the truth.

As an american, who lives in an area where enslaved people once walked, i know its hard to accept that the country i love was founded on opression. But it's something we all must acknowledge. It's a dark chapter of our history, and it continues to impact us today.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by patrickg_zill on Saturday May 12, 2018 @11:48AM (#17054589)
Maybe you have a point. Because I don't accept it (collective guilt). And 23% is not heavily dependent, no matter how you slice it.

Maternal side: has been in the USA since 1727. In those nearly 300 years, no one ever owned slaves or benefited from slavery. In fact, it is possible that they were even harmed by it; because as free farmers they had to compete against slave labor.

Paternal side: arrived in 1920s, well after slavery ended.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by vhudud on Saturday May 12, 2018 @12:37AM (#17052500)
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by clay_the_ripper on Friday May 11, 2018 @08:20PM (#17051661)
What exactly is your point? To me, statements like this are like “all lives matter”. Yes. We know. But we don’t need to point this out, because it’s just an undercover way of diminishing the point being made.
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by jm__87 on Saturday May 12, 2018 @08:25AM (#17053733)
While I understand the reason for the name of the Black Lives Matter movement, I can also understand why this phrase would annoy some people. When you say something as obviously true as "black lives matter", it invites people to ask the question of who must be disagreeing with this statement that we have to keep repeating it. Clearly this statement was intended for American law enforcement and I think it is very unfair to assume that any law enforcement officer would disagree with this statement unless there is no other explanation for their behavior. Do some law enforcement officers feel more threatened by black men than white men: this seems very likely given the number of innocent and unarmed black men who have been shot by police in recent years. While this means some police officers have a racial bias, it does not mean they think black lives don't matter. These officers who have shot unarmed black men think they are in a threatening situation and use way more force than is warranted, for which I agree they should still be prosecuted. While there are seemingly two issues here (racial bias and overuse of force), neither of these issues have to have anything to do with anyone believing black lives don't matter.

Edit: of course I realize that another way to interpret the statement "black lives matter" is to see it as more of a slogan and a constant reminder to address the issue as opposed to an accusation that someone or some group of people thinks otherwise. The fact that this statement is open to alternative interpretations is a problem for this movement, though.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by MadSudaca on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:08PM (#17052109)
What about a statement such as "whites are responsible for slavery". It's true, but not all "whites" were responsible. I think a lot of people wouldn't bat an eye at this comment. However, at an individual level it seems unfair to me, since obviously not everyone that was qualified by the label "white" during slavery is responsible.
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by krapp on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:23PM (#17052153)
>However, at an individual level it seems unfair to me, since obviously not everyone that was qualified by the label "white" during slavery is responsible.

All white people as individuals were not responsible for slavery, and some even opposed it, but all still benefited from slavery by virtue of being born into the race, society and class that the slave system was designed to benefit. That is unfair, but nonetheless true.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by MadSudaca on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:34PM (#17052192)
> but all still benefited from slavery by virtue of being born into the race, society and class that the slave system was designed to benefit.

This is false. Many benefited, true, but not all. And even if it was true, I don't see why people should be made responsible for the actions of others that under some definition are from their same "group", even if they benefited from them. This is collectivism/racism at its finest, it bothers me tremendously and I'm not even white.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by krapp on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:59PM (#17052267)
>This is false. Many benefited, true, but not all.

There are indirect benefits and direct benefits to an unjust system - implicit as well as explicit power that comes from membership in a privileged class. Having legal rights and protections that other classes don't enjoy is a benefit. Being allowed to read, having autonomy over your own children, being able to walk freely, being allowed to maintain a connection to one's ancestors, religion and emigrant homeland... these are all benefits granted to white people as a group during slavery.

> I don't see why people should be made responsible for the actions of others that under some definition are from their same "group", even if they benefited from them.

Well... I did concede that they shouldn't, and weren't. But if one group of people are considered property, and another group of people are legally capable of owning the first, then the latter group benefits from that system if only because they aren't the former.

It just happens that, at that time and place, the necessary selector for privilege was "whiteness." In another time, it might have been religion, or ethnicity or culture or following the wrong King. There were plenty of societies that practiced slavery that discriminated along many lines.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by aaron-lebo on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:26PM (#17052328)
But these rights were not granted to entire groups of people during slavery. See how the Irish were treated both by the British and as immigrants to the US. They were seen as lesser.

Irish Catholics and many other groups had no special place as immigrants, they didn't get positive points for not being African. That's the unfortunate truth with all forms of discrimination, it's hardly something limited by class, race or time.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by vhudud on Saturday May 12, 2018 @12:34AM (#17052485)
Irish american here. My ancestors came after slavery waa abolished in the us. They faced much discrimination when they arrived. Yet i still indirectly benefit from slavery and its repercussions. My family fled a decaying crime filled city to the suburbs. Their black neighbors could not, thanks to redlining and restrictive conevants. But by then, irish Americans were more likely to be seen as white. I grew up in a nice town with good schools as a result.

Sure, slavery didnt literally benefit every white person. But youd be hard pressed to find a white person today who never experienced any form of white privellage

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by tptacek on Saturday May 12, 2018 @12:52AM (#17052540)
They got massive points for not being African. They were included --- belatedly --- in the definition of "white" precisely so they could join other European Americans in solidarity against Africans. "No positive points for Irish for not being black" is a crazy, ahistorical thing to say. When I was born, in the 1970s, there wasn't a neighborhood in Chicago my Irish family couldn't have gotten a mortgage in. African Americans couldn't say that!
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by aaron-lebo on Saturday May 12, 2018 @01:12AM (#17052585)
We may be talking about different times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_nativist_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

https://www.history.com/news/when-america-despised-the-irish...

I find nothing ahistorical about what I said.

If you go further back and see what Cromwell and others did to the Irish (the first British colonization was in Ireland), and then extend that to the US, where that kind of hatred was shared by Nativists, it is certainly not inaccurate, even if the discrimination is of a different from than what Africans faced.

I dislike the notion that because people aren't African they weren't victims, too, which gets bandied around a lot. We all have tragedies and I see no reason to ignore the plight of one to make the point about another (which the parent post does, wrongly).

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by vhudud on Saturday May 12, 2018 @12:27AM (#17052464)
Who is attacking white people here? Nobody is blaming all white people for slavery. At least not in this article or in the comments here.

Maybe "whites are responsible for slavery" is a deceptive statement for all i know. But nobodys saying that.

Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by MadSudaca on Saturday May 12, 2018 @07:31AM (#17053551)
To me this is basically what the original commenter is saying, for which he was heavily downvoted.
Re:The Last Slave Ship Survivor Gave an Interview in the 1930s by travmatt on Friday May 11, 2018 @09:11PM (#17051907)
>don’t need to point this out, because it’s just an undercover way of diminishing the point being mad

That’s the feature though, not a bug.