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Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by monocasa on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @10:49AM (#16977373)
The VA was a good system not too long ago, but the past couple decades has seen it get extremely underfunded in a starve the beast strategy. It used to be a black eye in the Republican's view of healthcare, but they sure fixed that.
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by Hozzle on Friday May 04, 2018 @04:53AM (#16993169)
The VA is much the same as all the other US healthcare setups. A system with the controls taken off, trying to operate in a jungle of different systems and bureaucracies.

IN most nations with a VA-style (Beveridge) setup, there is great media interest in the least failing or hint of scandal. And they mean politicians lose a lot of votes. The VA hasn't enjoyed that feedback system until recently.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:19AM (#16977726)
> The VA was a good system not too long ago, but the past couple decades decades has seen it get extremely underfunded in a starve the beast strategy. It used to be a black eye in the Republican's view of healthcare, but they sure fixed that.

While it's tempting to blame any failure of national healthcare on Republicans, this is simply not factually accurate.

It's been at least two generations since the VA was anything resembling a good model for healthcare, and it's not simply the Republicans to blame for that, nor is it merely a problem of funding.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by monocasa on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:57AM (#16978221)
I mean, sure, the defunding started in the early 80s with Reagan, but we only started to see the effects of that in the past 20 years or so.

And sure, I blame the neoliberal third way Democrats as much as the Republicans. Their whole "let's move the party right and follow the Republicans" really muddies the waters here.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:33PM (#16978655)
> I mean, sure, the defunding started in the early 80s with Reagan, but we only started to see the effects of that in the past 20 years or so.

The problems with the VA date back to the 60s, although they've accelerated in the last couple of decades.

> And sure, I blame the neoliberal third way Democrats as much as the Republicans. Their whole "let's move the party right and follow the Republicans" really muddies the waters here.

It sounds like you're rather committed to the belief that right-wing ideology is responsible for destroying otherwise-viable public healthcare models. There are plenty of other places where the data might support that belief. The VA is not one of those cases; the VA has gone from bad to worse over the last 50 years, and it's not simply a partisan problem.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by monocasa on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:52PM (#16978845)
First off, the VA isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

https://www.rand.org/news/press/2016/07/18.html

"Quality of Care in VA Health System Compares Well to Other Health Settings"

A lot of the bad press around it's deficiencies are because it, as a public institution, publishes a lot of information that the private healthcare system isn't required to publish.

And yes, having been from Newt Gingrich's district, and seeing the failed 1994 HEART act, that ended up being turned into Romneycare, and then morphed into the ACA (in order to steal the Republican's thunder in 2012), yes I do blame the right wing for the current state of healthcare.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @01:00PM (#16978928)
> First off, the VA isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

From your own link, which is a press release by the firm which sponsored the research:

> Researchers say there were few studies [included in this meta-analyis] to evaluate equity, efficiency and patient-centeredness, and that the quality of the available studies vary.

Incidentally, those are three of the four main issues for which people typically criticize the VA.

In other words, that meta-analysis more or less confirms that the VA probably does well at the things people already knew it was good at doing, without looking into any of the areas where it's known to have problems.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by monocasa on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @01:19PM (#16979094)
> From your own link, which is a press release by the firm which sponsored the research:

I mean, it's the Rand Corporation. It's not like it's some fly by night 'you pay us and we'll say whatever you want' firm. The link to the real study is right there.

> Incidentally, those are three of the four main issues for which people typically criticize the VA.

That statement was for the whole study, including the private side. Once again, the VA publishes quite a bit of this information, when was the last time you saw average wait times for the private side?

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @01:50PM (#16979462)
> I mean, it's the Rand Corporation. It's not like it's some fly by night 'you pay us and we'll say whatever you want' firm.

...okay? The point is that the primary reference itself shows that the study isn't relevant to this conversation at all: by its own account, it doesn't attempt to investigate the issues that we're talking about. It doesn't attempt to study the issues that make the VA a bad model for healthcare (and have since the 60s).

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by rukittenme on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @10:56AM (#16977462)
What makes you think universal healthcare would be any different? If you recognize the VA's failings, and you blame Republicans for it, what's to stop them from doing it to every "good" idea you have?

If a few motivated politicians can ruin the lives of millions those politicians shouldn't have that power in the first place.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by Sangermaine on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:03AM (#16977532)
>What makes you think universal healthcare would be any different?

Because America isn't the entire world and there are many places where socialized healthcare of various forms have been very successfully implemented for a long time. The idea peddled by conservatives in America that the only options for socialized healthcare are inevitable failure or tyranny is simply, demonstrably nonsense.

It's exactly this kind of parochial, limited mindset that needs to change.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by rukittenme on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:14AM (#16977672)
Oh yes. Everyone who disagrees with me has a limited mindset. You could have used your open mind to read about a European (within this comment thread) who is having trouble with "the right" in his country:

> This is a principal reason why the US was crossed off my list of countries where I would work and live. I fight against the privatization that is occurring within healthcare in my native country, Iceland. We used to have the Scandinavian model but decades of attacks from the right-wing Independence Party has broken our healthcare system. The next phase described by Chomsky is handing it over to private capital since people are outraged that it doesn't work anymore. I'm sickened by the development and feel a little like an old man screaming at the desert wind.

It's exactly your kind of Utopian mindset that needs to change. Please read the news of countries other than the US. You might be surprised at the amount of controversy that surrounds universal healthcare systems.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by jdub on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:36AM (#16977939)
The controversy that surrounds universal healthcare systems goes something like this:

"I am disappointed by my treatment in the system!"

"Do you want to privatise it?"

"Absolutely not."

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by Clubber on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:05PM (#16978337)
In the US, the first sentence holds true, it just costs a lot more.
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by ryandrake on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:32PM (#16978653)
How many people out there would honestly be willing to trade their universal healthcare system for a US style system?
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by endtime on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @03:35PM (#16980423)
Alfie Evans' parents probably would...as would some of the people waiting months to get a simple MRI.
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by monocasa on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @04:27PM (#16980861)
Alfie Evans didn't have a brain anymore, and would have probably been pulled even quicker in the US system. Insurance agencies are quick to deny funding.
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by glhaynes on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:03AM (#16977540)
So because Republicans will fuck up any government in an effort to prove that government doesn't work, we shouldn't have government?
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by veidr on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:21AM (#16977754)
No, in the first place, you shouldn't have a significant percentage of elected officials in the government who will fuck up any government in an effort to prove that government doesn't work.

If you do have that, then it is highly unlikely that your country will be able to implement a health care system that is competitive with Canada, Japan, Netherlands, etc.

But beyond that, it's very unlikely that your country will be able to implement other fundamentals, such as uncontaminated drinking water, safe schools, etc.

In other words, if your country has three branches of government, and the party that controls the executive, legislative, and judicial branches really is willing to fuck up any government in an effort to prove that government doesn't work... then, I'm afraid you are really pretty fucked.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by Clubber on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:09PM (#16978377)
Ya, that about covers how I feel about it. The GOP strategy is to "starve the beast," unless the beast is military or police spending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by stevenwoo on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:04AM (#16977557)
That's a single argument in favor of what appears to be some call to remove power from government. The easy counter example is Medicare - we have universal healthcare already for people over the age of 65. Would you say that because the VA doesn't work great in your judgement (people are already coming up with counterexamples within that thread) that we should shut down Medicare?
Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by malyk on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:15AM (#16977681)
I think the OP covered this when they said

> Until we change our collective view in what the purpose of a government and society is things won’t change significantly.

So yeah, if we don't change our collective view, then the republicans (or whomever) will continue to undercut these government run programs as much as possible for their broken ideology.

Re:Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care br... by Daishiman on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @11:03AM (#16977545)
That's not an argument. You can literally say that about very government institution.

Governments require somewhat good will from politicians and voters to do their job. Some news.

The only reason that system fails is because voters don't care about it. There's nothing exceptionally bad about the US that would not make it so.