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Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by s17n on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @02:40PM (#16970025)
That's like saying "stealing isn't morally wrong - inventory control is retailers' responsibility and therefore it's their job to reduce loss".
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by jrhurst on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @02:47PM (#16970114)
I have a feeling that people who make misterbowlfingers argument would say that your analogy is also valid.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by s17n on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @02:57PM (#16970229)
The point is that since similar statements could be constructed about anything ("murder isn't wrong, it's the job of police to prevent me from killing people"), it's a dumb argument, regardless of how you feel about cheating or stealing.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by sithadmin on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:11PM (#16970370)
No, your approach to reasoning is bad. You're trying to apply a construct from formal logic and apply it to situations that defy description in formal logic. You can't reduce aesthetic and emotional responses into syllogism.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by s17n on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:21PM (#16970488)
Often, the nuances of the real world defy simple syllogistic reasoning. This isn't one of those times.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by Retric on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:35PM (#16970642)
Prove it. "Cheating" seems to have huge downsides, on the other hand it reduces friction inside of a rigid system. That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by tylerhou on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:39PM (#16971330)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

> "Suppose buyers cannot distinguish between a high-quality car (a "peach") and a "lemon". Then they are only willing to pay a fixed price for a car that averages the value of a "peach" and "lemon" together (pavg). But sellers know whether they hold a peach or a lemon. Given the fixed price at which buyers will buy, sellers will sell only when they hold "lemons" (since plemon < pavg) and they will leave the market when they hold "peaches" (since ppeach > pavg). Eventually, as enough sellers of "peaches" leave the market, the average willingness-to-pay of buyers will decrease (since the average quality of cars on the market decreased), leading to even more sellers of high-quality cars to leave the market through a positive feedback loop."

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by Retric on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:32PM (#16972726)
As to your specific argument reducing the implied value of a degree without impacting it's actual value is a net gain to society. Credentials independent of skill forces people to jump through extra hoops. This ends up as a huge drain on society.

Anyway you just specified an implied though not supported downside, while ignoring my point that cheating has some minor upsides. Demonstrating that cheating is a dead loss for society is not enough you need to demonstrate it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities allowing for such simple syllogistic reasoning to apply

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by nitrogen on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:58PM (#16973941)
> That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.

A major NYC blackout resulted in a bunch of looting. That looting is supposed to have resulted in a bunch of new musicians getting their hands on good equipment. Those scofflaw musicians invented new musical genres that revolutionized the artform. Sounds a lot like reducing the friction inside a rigid system.

Basically, while we might prefer to have people raise integrity to the highest priority, life is complicated and it's sometimes hard to say a wrong thing is 100% wrong.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by Retric on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @05:52AM (#16975420)
TV's are not musical instruments and where part of my argument specifically because they are not used to create stuff.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by usrusr on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @05:10AM (#16975190)
"Punched him in the face for looking weak." Unfortunately, that attitude isn't half as uncommon as one should hope.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by sithadmin on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:00PM (#16970259)
It is a valid analogy, because it confronts reality: there are a huge number of persons with economic incentives to commit immoral or illegal acts, and the state doesn't have the capability to intervene in a majority of cases.

I mean, hell, look at SOX. Look at the various anti-money laundering requirements that banks are subject to. The de jure approach here in the world today is to force the corporation to police its own staff and customers.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by HarryHirsch on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:38PM (#16971313)
What if some of the statement were true? We don't hesitate to close down bars and nightclubs where the patrons are regularly getting into fights, we prosecute people who leave their car key in the ignition and people who leave guns in plain sight. This kind of negligence encourages criminal behaviour, and that is something we don't need more of.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:51PM (#16970810)
Academic cheating is NOT morally wrong in a general sense.

We only think it is because it's drilled into us from a young age by the educational system. But there's really no equivalent of "cheating" in real world industries where it's the results that matter. e.g. nobody cares if you took wrote the software yourself or got it from someone else's library, as long as the software product works.

If cheating happens, it is the responsibility of: 1) schools to deal with that accordingly (withhold degrees according to pre-written rules, etc) 2) employers to interview people instead of looking at credentials (something they should be doing anyway).

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:42PM (#16971357)
> Academic cheating is NOT morally wrong in a general sense.

Well, morality isn't an objectively-verifiable property of the physical universe but one about which different opinions exist and where even if a “correct” answer exists it isn't demonstrably so, and in that sense nothing is morally wrong in a fully general sense, and moral values are very much shaped by socialization, sure.

OTOH, academic cheating involves violation of agreements and obtaining things of value by false representations, which is fairly broadly considered to be morally wrong generally, not just in the specific case of academic cheating.

> But there's really no equivalent of "cheating" in real world industries where it's the results that matter.

Pretty much the entirety of the law is about defining the what is cheating in seeking “real world” results, in the same way as academic codes define what is cheating in academic contexts.

Particularly, delegating assignments to third parties outside the scope of authorization by those giving the assignment, or using materials prohibited by those giving the assignment when completing it, is cheating in the real world, and not just the academy. (The reasons assignments have those kind of restrictions may be different, of course.)

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @06:01PM (#16972136)
Misrepresenting your ability is morally wrong and can cause actual harm - personal, economic, or other forms of harm.

You cheat on your test and become a lawyer, I may end up in jail because of your cheating.

... Or, you become a teacher, and my education is harmed.

... Or, an activity worker, and I fall off a climbing wall.

... Or, a scientist, and I waste time and resources repeating an experiment because you didn't understand what you were doing and lied to cover it up.

... Or, become a shop worker and I get short changed.

... Or, make sandwiches, and kill people because you don't follow basic hygiene and cheated to get your certificate.

... Or, a million other possible scenarios where people trust you to represent yourself so they know whether you're capable of carrying out the tasks you're set.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by saalweachter on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:25PM (#16972689)
Or you copy copyrighted or patented works into your knowledge-worker output, creating liabilities for your employer which can destroy it.

Or if you generalized cheating from "copying answers" to "producing answers that look right to your employers", you get a whole range of dishonest behavior you can get away with for years (careers?) while causing serious harm to individuals, companies and communities. Using unsafe materials which superficially pass inspection, outright faking studies so that it looks like your drugs work, fingering a likely suspect in a criminal investigation and lying on the stand to get them convicted.

I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but there is sometimes a logical appeal.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:17PM (#16973784)
These are real-world situations with real consequences on people's time, money, and lives. Honesty and ethics matter here. That's what licensing requirements are for. That's different from the academic system where you only use 10% of what you learn, once you go into the real world.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by kd5bjo on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @07:06AM (#16975778)
My career ended up in a different field than my degree, so I don't use much of what I was taught in university, but it's still quite useful to me:

* It taught me how to learn difficult things quickly.

* The parts I do use were drilled to being second nature by the advanced courses I don't use anymore

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by baldfat on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:28PM (#16971199)
> But there's really no equivalent of "cheating" in real world industries where it's the results that matter. e.g. nobody cares if you took wrote the software yourself or got it from someone else's library, as long as the software product works.

Real Equivalent cheating:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693

The software developer, in his 40s, is thought to have spent his workdays surfing the web, watching cat videos on YouTube and browsing Reddit and eBay.

He reportedly paid just a fifth of his six-figure salary to a company based in Shenyang to do his jo

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:32PM (#16971254)
How does that harm anyone? Does anyone who doesn't work at Verizon care?

Here's the real problem: leaking private info:

> And it had then called on Verizon to look into what it had suspected had been malware used to route confidential information from the company to China.

> "Central to the investigation was the employee himself, the person whose credentials had been used to initiate and maintain a VPN connection from China," said Mr Valentine.

> Further investigation of the employee's computer had revealed hundreds of PDF documents of invoices from the Shenyang contractor, he added.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by your-nanny on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:02PM (#16972905)
I mean just look at Enron. Or the volkwagon diesel fraud. Or the financial crisis of 2008
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by heartles on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:29PM (#16972715)
Ha, that story reminds me of an old Onion video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaZ57Bn4pQ

Same concept taken to its extremes.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by komali2 on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:19PM (#16971101)
Employers do care if you outsource your code writing to India without telling anyone, which is the functional equivalent here.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by usrusr on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @05:28AM (#16975303)
> But there's really no equivalent of "cheating" in real world industries where it's the results that matter.

Actual real world industries are full of possibilities for cheating: lie on your estimations, then lie to avert blame after those estimations are not met. Convert safety margings into profit margins and use that to outbid competitors who don't with prices they can't match. Real people die under collapsing structures that would not have collapsed had the safety margins been there.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by sakuronto on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @10:28AM (#16977171)
Yes it's wrong - you go in to learn, you promise not to cheat, then you violate that promise, and fail to properly demonstrate that you have, in fact, learnt. That's pretty clearly immoral.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by gaius on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:02PM (#16978289)
nobody cares if you took wrote the software yourself or got it from someone else's library, as long as the software product works

They do if you are in violation of a license...

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by your-nanny on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:00PM (#16972895)
Attitudes like this are why we can't have good things.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by matz1 on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:04PM (#16970941)
Morality is relative anyway.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by komali2 on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:21PM (#16971118)
Yes but it's meaningless to devolve into that rabbit hole here because Western court of public opinion has already decided it is morally wrong. This is reflected in writing in the rules of very nearly every academic institution across the planet.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by matz1 on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:09PM (#16972956)
If I'm the essay writer, how is your morality forcing me to stop doing it ? Unless it become law, and actually enforced, your morality is meaningless.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by komali2 on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:52PM (#16973911)
Nothing is, but why would you do it if you weren't getting paid for it (because all your customers have been thrown out of school)?
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by misterbowfinger on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:48PM (#16970771)
I don't think the two are comparable. Cheating on a test doesn't "take" anything of intrinsic value from another person, stealing does. Cheating hurts no one.

You can argue that cheating puts you ahead of students that work in good faith, systemically, though it's still a bit different. Stealing has implied intent of taking something away from someone, cheating doesn't. You're just trying to get better grades.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by hdctambien on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:26PM (#16971183)
Cheating can take from others.

Merit scholarships are given based on class rank. If the #11 student cheats to get to #10, then they took scholarship money that someone else actually earned. This is a very real problem in my school district.

Additionally, if you cheated to get good grades and got into a good university because of them, then you probably took the seat of someone that didn't cheat and was not accepted but would have been.

Also, (some?) universities internally rank high schools by the performance of the students they accept. So, if School A sends a bunch of 4.0 students that all flunk out, then future students from that school get their 4.0 weighted lower than a 4.0 from School B where students regularly graduate from the university with honors.

So, if you are cheating to get a good grade and you get into a good school (taking the seat of a student that didn't cheat) and then you get caught cheating, or just end up doing poorly because you were never that good of a student, then future students from your high school will be penalized because of the poor choices you made (and because the school was unwilling or unable to deal with those choices).

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by misterbowfinger on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @05:28PM (#16971857)
Yes, precisely!!!!

The system is. broken. to. begin. with. And not just with cheating, with a number of different factors.

What incentive, as a student, do I have to NOT cheat if I won't get caught?

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by mwfunk on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @03:05AM (#16974768)
Well, if that’s how you feel, why the hell are you going to school in the first place? It’s expensive as hell, you are wasting tremendous amounts of mommy and daddy’s money, as well as wasting the one and likely only time in your entire life in which you can basically work full time improving yourself for 4 years. If you’ve already given up on improving your value through knowledge, I don't know what else you think you’re bringing to the table. Anyone can lie about themselves, it’s not like that’s some unique and marketable skill (for anything worth doing at least). If you’ve got a trust fund and can just fail through life with no consequences, good for you I guess, but then you’re hardly offering meaningful advice for people who actually want to do something with their education.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by tylerhou on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @05:51PM (#16972059)
1) your own personal ethics, and 2) the fact that being caught, especially in a college environment, has consequences.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by misterbowfinger on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @06:42PM (#16972415)
[updated my comment, apologies for the poor wording]
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by PuercoPop on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:01PM (#16972899)
Learn. Which is the whole poiny of education in the first place.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by walshemj on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:55PM (#16970851)
devalues the value of the qualifications and hurts those that didn't cheat.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:56PM (#16970859)
Agreed 100%.

We only think cheating is only "wrong" because it goes against how the people who set up the educational system intend for it to work, e.g. they are short circuiting the system. It has no counterpart in the real world, and cannot be compared to murder and theft. If it were up to me, I'd make the school system results-only -- i.e. it's about how well you can build a project and explain it, not how well you can write up answers.

People who think otherwise need to wake up from their K-12-university programming.

And in case anyone thinks I'm an uneducated redneck, I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @05:50PM (#16972048)
>I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities. //

.. and as cheating isn't wrong in your personal ethical system you're happy to lose your job to someone who claims to be better qualified than you but is just cheating to get ahead?

I don't know what engineering you do but I don't think society should value engineers as highly who know something is wrong but can't explain it and so don't get it fixed. "Soft" skills matter.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by nradov on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @04:27PM (#16971195)
A results-only education system would be preferable and would make some forms of cheating irrelevant. But it suffers from practical cost and scalability obstacles. We're already struggling to adequately fund public education. Are politicians willing to budget for additional teachers to evaluate student projects rather than relying on cheap and simple exams?
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Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by cirgue on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:47PM (#16972808)
If you think the only important part of your children’s future is their ability to get hired, then you’re already setting them up for a life of misery and disappointment.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:29PM (#16973824)
If you think the only important part of your children's education is what happens inside the walls of schools, then you're already setting them up for a life of mediocrity and servitude.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by mwfunk on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @03:26AM (#16974861)
Why not do both? Learn your amazing life lessons outside of school and couple them with learning everything you can inside school. Why limit yourself? Why go out of your way to diminish your own value? It doesn’t make sense.

That’s how people end up in lives of mediocrity and servitude- they make self-destructive life choices that they rationalize by wrapping them up in some sort of bogus heroic narrative that they literally only came with to make them feel less bad about themselves. There’s nothing wrong with failure, right up until someone decides to not learn from their failures, and enshrines them instead because it’s a lot less work and it feels better. I’ve been there and it sucks. There is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by eecsninja on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @04:00AM (#16974963)
Thanks for sharing, and for pointing out that it's ultimately about self-improvement. I'd upvote you more if I could.
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by jamespo on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @05:44AM (#16975389)
except he didn't say "all that matters to me" unlike your overblown hyperbole
Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by isostatic on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @09:54AM (#16976854)
Of course the point of schools and college isn't the final exam, it's the years of learning you benefit from while being there

At least it should be

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by creep on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @03:59PM (#16970893)
I agree with you. Why not take advantage of the loopholes given? I think that's clever.

I'm a math major, and something I've noticed is that my exams aren't helpful for actually learning math. I don't cheat on the exams because I want to learn as best I can, and I want to say that my good grades really are mine, but in all honesty my degree isn't useful in the future because I have the ability to get the right answer by hand on a carefully constructed math problem-- it's useful because of mathematical thinking, and because I now have the awareness of the mathematical tools at my disposal and their known use cases.

But really, cheating isn't more "wrong" than any other category of thing some people wish didn't exist but does. If there's a loophole and that loophole gets you where you want to be all things considered, then take the loophole.

I agree that, for some people, cheating is ultimately harmful. For example, if you're a comp sci major and know nothing about computers going in, you're gonna want to do it the way the university wants you to do it, or you should drop out and learn a different way if that suits you better. But otherwise, just consider the costs/benefits and cheat with awareness. Our most innovative and important achievements as a species were obtained by finding loopholes.

Re:YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating by mythrwy on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @01:45AM (#16974388)
A loophole is different from what you describe.

An example: Suppose there was an obscure rule that said professors must pass anyone who had taken the class three times. Some people take advantage, enroll for the same class three semesters, don't attend at all and still receive a passing grade. That would be a loophole. Dubious and contrary to the purpose, but technically legal.

What you describe is a circumvention or subversion of the system itself rather than a loophole.