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Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by loup-vaillant on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:00PM (#16952538)
We may argue that domain names are different from phone numbers because they are recognisable. They carry trademarks, and unlike phone numbers, are often the way we remember of an internet facing person or company. Also, the practical consequences of losing a phone number are much tamer than that of losing a domain name.

I'm not sure the courts would hold the same conclusions for domain names and phone numbers. While even if the latter is not property, the former could be treated as intellectual property. Though in this case, that would be one more reason to give the domain name to the French government…

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by reificator on Sunday April 29, 2018 @03:08PM (#16953410)
> We may argue that domain names are different from phone numbers because they are recognisable. They carry trademarks, and unlike phone numbers, are often the way we remember of an internet facing person or company.

> Call JG Wentworth- 877-CASH-NOW!

> So ladies, if ya' butt is round, and you want a Triple-X throw down, dial 1 900-MIX-A-LOT and kick them nasty thoughts. Baby got back!

> I pity the foo' who don't use 1 800-COLLECT

> Jenny Jenny, don't change your number: 8-6-7-5-3-0-9!

> Save big bucks on every call- dial 1 800-CALL-ATT

And that's off the top of my head, many of which I haven't heard for 15 or more years.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by SimbaOnSteroids on Sunday April 29, 2018 @06:54PM (#16954360)
I would argue that with a phone number, the letters are explicitly tied to the address whereas a domain is more or less key value pair for an ip address.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by chimeracoder on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:56PM (#16952792)
> We may argue that domain names are different from phone numbers because they are recognisable. They carry trademarks, and unlike phone numbers, are often the way we remember of an internet facing person or company.

This isn't unlike how phone numbers used to be until 10-20 years ago (and still are for many people today, outside of tech circles).

Off the top of my head, I can rattle off at least six different phone numbers for businesses which I've never used (and some of which don't even exist anymore), simply because they chose a phone number that spelled out something memorable and relevant, and then used that heavily in their promotional materials and advertising, the same way you would for a domain name or app name today.

Heck Googling just one, I found a Youtube documentary that chronicles the 40-year history of jingles associated with one of those numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDv8zqpl8mI

> Also, the practical consequences of losing a phone number are much tamer than that of losing a domain name.

That's absolutely not true. They actually translate one-to-one quite well.

> While even if the latter is not property, the former could be treated as intellectual property

"Intellectual property" is a catchall term that conflates three completely distinct concepts in law: copyright, patents, and trademarks.

Phone numbers are obviously not patentable; the entire idea is nonsensical. And phone numbers are explicitly not subject to copyright protection, and there's case law about this exact scenario. You can copyright a particular publication of phone numbers (such as a phone book), but not the number itself, and even if you could, that doesn't mean you're actually the owner of the number (the one who holds the copyright).

You could make the argument for trademark protection, and that's exactly what this case is about. Unfortunately, it's a bidirectional application of competing marks - the man who owns France.com was already being accused of infringing French trademark law in the first place by claiming France.com as a mark.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by merb on Sunday April 29, 2018 @03:27PM (#16953496)
> Heck Googling just one, I found a Youtube documentary that chronicles the 40-year history of jingles associated with one of those numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDv8zqpl8mI

NSFW:

In germany there was 0190 76 76 76 - come play with me. (seven - sex, seven - sex, etc.)

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by mc32 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:18PM (#16952887)
What about the case where companies pay for vanity phone numbers that either match their business name, or approximate the business name: ex, 800 mattress or 800 eyeglasses?
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by walrus01 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @10:38PM (#16955278)
since the 800 prefix has been exhausted, there is a pretty healthy secondary resale market in selling 800 numbers that have some recognizable combination of alphnumeric digits.

"as seen on TV" type ads selling kitchen gadgets and such will pay a fairly large amount of money for a "good" 800 DID.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jsjohnst on Monday April 30, 2018 @01:22AM (#16955987)
Based on your other replies in this thread, you obviously know that there are more toll free NPAs than just “800”. As many of them have been around a long time, I would argue they are just as recognizable.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by walrus01 on Monday April 30, 2018 @02:16AM (#16956204)
Yes, i'm well aware of that... I actually control the DIDs for some 800 numbers that are very valuable, we've been offered a great deal of money to transfer them. 800 remains the most valuable by far, particularly for direct sales to consumers in the US market, because it's existed for the longest amount of time. NPAs 888 and 877 are not nearly as valuable.

If you're setting up the inbound call center call routing for something like selling slapchops or asbestos-related personal injury lawyers (just as an example of television direct marketing), a vastly higher percentage of the age 55+ target market recognizes 800 immediately but is less certain about 888, 877 and others.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jsjohnst on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:11AM (#16966324)
> a vastly higher percentage of the age 55+ target market recognizes 800 immediately but is less certain about 888, 877 and others.

That used to be the case, but not so much anymore. 888 and 877 have been used enough by major companies over the past twenty years that most consumers know they are TF. The companies who claim 800 is the only way to go and not 888/877/866 have a vested financial interest in convincing you of that.

(Note: 855/844/833 have much less awareness, so my omission of them above was intentional)

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jsjohnst on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @10:38PM (#16973632)
> I actually control the DIDs for some 800 numbers that are very valuable, we've been offered a great deal of money to transfer them. 800 remains the most valuable by far

Also, not disputing they are really valuable, I know that’s true from personal experience as well.

I’m more arguing that 800 numbers are valuable for a similar reason to diamonds being valuable. It’s not because diamonds are super rare or truly needed, it’s because the marketing has been so effective on them. The unbiased studies I’ve read show 888/877 are just as readily known and give a similar positive brand image as 800 numbers are. The industry doesn’t want to admit it though because they’ll lose out on the hype money.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by kelnos on Monday April 30, 2018 @07:48AM (#16957744)
I was about to ask why toll-free even matters, since cell phones make dialing "long distance" free. But I guess the 55+ target market is probably the least-saturated market when it comes to cell phones too, yeah?
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by ksenzee on Monday April 30, 2018 @01:22PM (#16960431)
Toll free matters in the way that having a .com matters. If you're advertising steakknives.biz at 616-555-1234, you have next to no credibility.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jsjohnst on Monday April 30, 2018 @08:14AM (#16957876)
In this day and age, most folks have free long distance whether they have a cell phone or not. One misconception is that calling a 800 prefix is completely cost free, on a cellular phone, you still get charged for roaming / air time in most cases.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by walrus01 on Monday April 30, 2018 @02:08PM (#16960848)
an 800 number is also partially about having a large corporate identity, for example if go to the website for $HUGE_AIRLINE and its main customer service/reservations phone number is 1-416-something-something vs 1-800-something-something, it looks less serious.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jsjohnst on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:13AM (#16966330)
I used to work for MCI back in the day and our small business teams used that very tactic to sell TF numbers.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by CyberDildonics on Sunday April 29, 2018 @02:05PM (#16953127)
Is the government seizing those too?
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by komali2 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @03:02PM (#16953370)
The idea is if one, then the other. Kind of like when you spec out edge cases.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by Spare_account on Sunday April 29, 2018 @04:18PM (#16953709)
They could. Should they be able to?
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by ubernostrum on Sunday April 29, 2018 @09:25PM (#16955052)
Well, the Supreme Court just reinforced the difference between types of property, and upheld the idea that a government-granted artificial privilege doesn't have the same set of rights and due process attached to it that other types of property do.

Trademarks, being in the same boat, could in theory be revoked with less due process.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by azernik on Sunday April 29, 2018 @05:33PM (#16954026)
Intellectual property isn't quite property either. The Supreme Court recently rules against a patent troll claiming that an administrative revocation of a patent was a taking without due process precisely by this reasoning.[EDIT: as detailed at http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/04/opinion-analysis-justices-...]

Specifically:

> Two key points support the view that patents are matters of purely “public right.” The first is the notion, illustrated by quotations from earlier cases, that the patent is a “creature of statute law” that “take[s] from the public rights of immense value, and bestow[s] them upon the patentee.” The second is that the Constitution explicitly allocates to Congress the power to “promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts” by granting patents; Congress’ decision to authorize the executive branch to grant patents is thus a constitutionally sanctioned delineation of “the executive power,” something which “need not be adjudicated in an Article III court.”

Public rights are not property.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by xkcd-sucks on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:09PM (#16952588)
So the domain owner should have registered a business called "France.com"
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by jkaplowitz on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:18PM (#16952626)
He did operate such a business. From the article: "For over 20 years, Frydman built up a business (also known as France.com) [...]."

I don't think we've routinely required ".com" to be part of the business branding of .com domain owners, but Ars Technica says he had that.

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by ThomPete on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:26PM (#16952674)
He did, but more importantly, the French government isn't a business either.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by koolba on Sunday April 29, 2018 @02:15PM (#16953170)
Nor is the French government a US citizen, permanent resident, or corporation.

Does this mean they can seize the word “France” in other languages well?

Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by gsich on Sunday April 29, 2018 @04:01PM (#16953644)
They definitly want to. France is a vulture when it comes to it's language.
Re:France seizes france.com from man who's had it since 1994 by tripzilch on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @05:01PM (#16981128)
As far as I understand, this is a US citizen, having registered their domain with a US business (web.com), and the government of France filed a lawsuit in a US court, and the decision was made based on US law. And apparently US law allows this for the French government, even if they're not a US citizen or corporation (I'm not sure how that works but if it wasn't specifically allowed by US law, it wouldn't have happened).

So France didn't "seize" anything.

You can argue the govt of France shouldn't have filed this suit, but based on what reasoning? It's not really their job to protect the interests of US citizens. I mean, that's how it is. It's not very nice. In reverse, the US only seems to care about US citizens as well. I agree it would be nice if governments cared more about the rights of their allies' citizens as well, such as not violating their privacy on a global scale and not hacking into the private home computers of allies' citizens.

Also I kind of feel the article confuses the matter a little by referring to the guy as a "French-born American" (which isn't at all relevant enough to the case to lead with in the first paragraph), and incorrectly stating he "has now sued his home country" when he has in fact sued his country of birth. His home country is the USA if he's an American. (unless I got the meaning of those terms wrong, in which case I stand by the fact that it's confusing to lead with :) )

edit I think I wanted to reply to the sibling post, sorry for even more confusion :)