News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by klodolph on Saturday April 14, 2018 @02:49PM (#16838793)
> So the country still suffers regardless if specific classes of people managed to improve.

The phrase “specific classes of people” seems to miss the entire point of the parent comment… according to the linked study, all groups of people improved from 1992 to 2015, not just “specific” groups. This is a classic example of Simpson’s paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox

Imagine, for a moment, that you start a school that teaches reading and writing. You have 10 ELL students and 90 native students. When you test them in 2015, the ELL students score 50 points on average, and the native students score 100 points on average. The average score for the school is 95.

Now imagine that your school is well-known now, and you hire better teachers (all test scores go up 10 points), and 40 more ELL students join your school. Now you have 50 ELL learners averaging 60 points, and 50 native learners averaging 110, so the average score is 85.

Even though everybody’s test scores went up by 10 points, the average test scores went down by 10 points because the demographics changed.

To be honest, this is horribly unfair. Somehow ELL students are seen as “behind” the native speakers when that’s only when you measure them in English. This propagates the idea that it’s better to be an excellent English speaker than it is to be bilingual but less proficient at English. And it’s unfortunate that ELL students who study, e.g., science may get poor grades at times because even though they understand the concepts and know the terminology, the terminology is from their native language.

Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by acdha on Saturday April 14, 2018 @08:56PM (#16840488)
> To be honest, this is horribly unfair.

I’ve heard of one high school where this was especially bad: they had a perhaps laudable goal of encouraging everyone to take APs and go to college but didn’t have the support that requires so recent immigrants were taking AP English before they were even fluent.

There was a worse analytical trap: this problem was masked for years because the school did well on a ranking which measured the number of students taking AP tests against the number of students who passed at least one test because having native Spanish speakers take AP Spanish got a bunch of high scores even though they bombed every other test because they just weren’t proficient enough yet to understand it. I still wonder how different it’d have been if they’d had funding for something like after school language practice.

Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 14, 2018 @03:25PM (#16838961)
> To be honest, this is horribly unfair. Somehow ELL students are seen as “behind” the native speakers when that’s only when you measure them in English.

This does not reflect the reality of US practice, in which students may be labeled "ELL" even if they prefer to speak English at home and/or with their friends. You graduate from the ELL designation by passing a standardized test, so it's more of a designation for "who's stupid" than for "who has trouble with English". It's not really surprising that a group defined by their inability to score well on standardized tests turns in poor scores on other standardized tests.

Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by klodolph on Saturday April 14, 2018 @04:10PM (#16839203)
This comment is perfectly representative of what I was talking about. The entire idea that ELL is a “designation for ‘who’s stupid’” is exactly what is untrue, and the limitations of standardized testing propagate this false belief.

ELL is a bucket that has people with learning disabilities mixed with immigrants and children of immigrants. The fact that a 14-year-old Korean kid who just moved to America can’t remember the English word for “photosynthesis” is not a reflection of poor skills in science but poor skills in English. I argue that the intent of a science test is to test knowledge of science, and that giving immigrants poor marks for subjects they are good at is nothing more than a failure of testing. This failure should be known and understood when analyzing test results—no test is perfect, but we should be able to account for known sources of error. Simpson’s paradox is the classic example of what wrong conclusions you can draw when you fail to account for variables which are known to affect the result.

Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 14, 2018 @04:23PM (#16839276)
I'm saying that labeling children of immigrants "ELL" corrupts the system and makes the category basically useless.

I agree with you as to the Korean immigrant. But ELLs as a class are not "behind native English speakers only when you measure them in English". They are native English speakers themselves, and they are behind the non-ELL class because they are selected for poor performance.

Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by lukeschlather on Saturday April 14, 2018 @03:46PM (#16839079)
It doesn't matter if they prefer to speak English at home. Imagine some scale where 50 is satisfactory and 100 is ideal, a kid who scores a 40 in English and a 30 in Spanish is probably better off than someone who scores a 50 in English with no other language. But we don't rigorously measure Spanish proficiency.
Re:Assumptions about how children learn to read have been di... by Gibbon1 on Saturday April 14, 2018 @04:19PM (#16839244)
> Somehow ELL students are seen as “behind” the native speakers when that’s only when you measure them in English.

I saw this first hand growing up in San Jose in 1970's 1980's. The Vietnam war ended followed by the Cambodian genocide as a result there was a huge influx of refugees and their kids. You had 8 year old's who had spent the last four years in a refugee camp and speak no English at all. I went to college with a bunch of them. They were smart but always trying to catch up with English and writing.