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Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by reaperducer on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:26PM (#16782342)
> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions.

Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it.

Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Whether they can pass an ID scan or not. It's one of the reasons why voter ID proposals are so vocally opposed. I am a citizen, just as I am a human being. I do not need to prove it to exist. I didn't even have a Social Security number until I was an adult and wanted to start work. It wasn't until the tax authorities made SSN's mandatory to deduct dependents from your taxes that people started registering their babies at birth.

However, in some other nations, people don't think of themselves as citizens unless they have the blessing of their government in the form of a document or a registration number.

Americans look at the Soviet Union, and other failed states and worry about what happens when a particular group of people falls out of favor and can be disenfranchised with the click of a button.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by haltingproblem on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:32PM (#16782375)
> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Whether they can pass an ID scan or not. It's one of the reasons why voter ID proposals are so vocally opposed. I am a citizen, just as I am a human being. I do not need to prove it to exist.

I hope you mean this in jest as this privilege does not apply to vast swathes of the population.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by zo1 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:56PM (#16782531)
No, you really aren't a citizen unless you jump through hoops. The reason you don't see that is because you've existed as a citizen since birth on whatever citizen roll/database, with a citizenship link by virtue of your parents.

Maybe you get a free-pass as a baby/child/orphan. But as an adult, you don't get to just "appear" onto the electronic grid of citizen presence. If there were such a mechanism and it were easy and devoid of "loops" then illegal immigrants would have exploited it by now to become citizens.

You may think you're a citizen, but you are not unless you have the blessing of your government.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by iguy on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:29PM (#16783393)
If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it.

My understanding was that this was the previous system. Government run warehouses with quotas, and shops that handed it out. You had to present a ration cards, as there has to be some system to stop you collecting 10 times a day & running a shop. (This would otherwise be more profitable than many people's jobs.)

And it didn't work. I forget, but maybe 80% of the wheat went missing? (Officially "eaten by rats" but really sold by officials on the side.) And this food subsidy was quite a large part of the national budget. So that's the scale of the problem which this hoped to solve. If every citizen has a number and a bank account, and you just wire them the money, then you won't lose 80%.

The American debate about ID laws is just a much smaller issue. Surely some people cheat, but the current system basically works.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by rohit2412 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:50PM (#16782505)
>> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not.

Tell that to the undocumented immigrants. You forget that you have a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by zo1 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:59PM (#16782551)
So then why don't they go and apply to be documented? I'm sure their foreign birth certificate is enough to prove their existence. Oh, that's right, it's illegal and would get declined. Hence the correct term: "illegal immigrants". The topic is complicated and touchy enough without it being muddled with incorrect terminology.
Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by shripadk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:35PM (#16782780)
Exactly the reason why India wants documentation via Aadhaar. We have millions of undocumented/illegal immigrants too. From neighbouring Bangladesh (nothing against Bangladeshi's... always welcome through the legal route). They have been enjoying the benefits accorded to them from Indian taxpayer money. Why should Indian exchequer pay for welfare of these illegal immigrants? Before Aadhaar, it was really easy to forge a Voter ID card and start receiving benefits that were due to the poor and needy Indian citizens. You can't forge fingerprints.
Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by captn3m0 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:45PM (#16783179)
this makes me cringe because Aadhaar does not certify citizenship. Someone who crosses over the border today into India can get a aadhaar without any documents by:

1. using the introducer system (The enrollment center operator would gladly do this for you)

2. signing a checkbox that says they've lived in India for 180 days.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by shripadk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:37PM (#16783426)
You can do anything illegally but you also have to be ready for the consequences. Obtaining a PAN using forged documents has just a 10000 rupee penalty but obtaining Aadhaar card illegally will put you in prison for 3 years. Those who are obtaining Aadhaar illegally are setting themselves up for even greater trouble as their biometrics is forever stored with the GoI. Illegal immigrants will have to think twice before going down that route as once discovered will completely block their ability to legally enter India ever again (apart from a lengthy jail term and subsequent deportation).

1. http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/illegal-bangla...

2. http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/jammu-kashmir/communit...

3. https://m.indiatimes.com/news/india/here-is-why-you-should-n...

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by rohit2412 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:55PM (#16782919)
I didn't want to fall into this debate, hence used the politically correct term.

My point being, the other guy is arguing that USA doesn't require identity documents, which is laughable. You need SSN just to earn money in USA.

Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by zo1 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @08:19AM (#16785802)
Sorry - I didn't mean to single out your specific usage of the term. Just a bit of a touchy topic as well because I find such language-manipulation that appears trivial on the surface to be a tool used to control discussion. And as a legal migrant, I find the right to be in a host country a privilege; one that should be earned rather than demanded.
Re:‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Foo... by rohit2412 on Thursday April 12, 2018 @12:57AM (#16818116)
I completely agree. People normalizing illegal immigration should openly support what they stand for, that is open borders.