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Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by kurthr on Thursday April 05, 2018 @10:49AM (#16765385)
That's an interesting interpretation. I assume you mean as decendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I had never considered Catholics or christianity an ethnic group. Because to me it implied shared genetic features.
Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by pavelrub on Thursday April 05, 2018 @11:48AM (#16765972)
You are confusing Judaism - the religion, with the Jewish people - an ethnorelegious group. Many modern Jews are atheists - they certainly don't believe in Judaism, yet nobody would doubt that they are Jewish, nor would they deny this themselves. Similarly - a Jew can become a christian or a muslim yet ethnically still remain a Jew. The same cannot be said about christians or muslims.
Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by spike021 on Thursday April 05, 2018 @12:45PM (#16766516)
>a Jew can become a christian or a muslim yet ethnically still remain a Jew

I completely agree with your comment, and not only that but also find your view on the quote interesting as well.

A lot of Jews would say that any Jew who becomes a Christian is no longer Jewish (by ethnicity or religion) even if said "Jewish Christian" still abides by and observes many Jewish customs and holidays.

Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by User23 on Thursday April 05, 2018 @02:43PM (#16767781)
A lot of Jews are still mad that the greatest man among them started the most successful and enduring sect of Judaism ever, and then had the gall to welcome foreigners.
Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by kurthr on Thursday April 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#16768653)
I may still be confused, because without the term Jewish people, it would seem that many adherents to the Jewish faith which are not ethnically Jewish would not be considered Jews?

I would argue that there are also many atheist Catholics (e.g. in Italy) who would disagree that they were not also part of an ethnorelegious group.

Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by TangoTrotFox on Thursday April 05, 2018 @12:56PM (#16766624)
Judaism is very different than most religions in that it doesn't try to spread, but is instead quite insular. If you want to convert it's a big deal with study, testing, and culminating with a literal certificate of conversion - that can be revoked. It's also very unique in that Jewish Orthodoxy considers it 'genetic'. If your mother was a Jew, you are a Jew - regardless of whether you consider yourself e.g. an atheist.

The majority of Jews today (in the ballpark of 75%) are Ashkenazi Jews which is a sort of 'race' in that they share a very recent common ancestor -- which is also why so many Jews share common physical features. All of this is very different than other religions, even other Abrahamic religions. So it is not inconsistent that state that Jews are an ethnic group, but other religious groups are not.

Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by kolpa on Thursday April 05, 2018 @01:50PM (#16767172)
Orthodoxy is only one small part of Judaism and Jews.

> If you want to convert it's a big deal with study, testing, and culminating with a literal certificate of conversion - that can be revoked.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/50602/can-conver...

Only in narrow areas, such as modern State of Israel (which is a blip in Jewish history, and not the world government of Jews), which very special circumstances.

It's complicated.

Also, you can be a non-Jewish woman, marry a Jewish man, and have Jewish children, who an Orthodox Jew might call non-Jewish children, but those children and their descendants and neighbors may never think are "not Jewish"

Re:Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write by TangoTrotFox on Thursday April 05, 2018 @03:58PM (#16768356)
You have things reversed. What you see today is an extremely rapid reformation upon reformation of Judaism. This is the blip in Jewish history. However, what has led up to today is the product of what we would consider orthodox Judaism, which of course was simply called Judaism.

For instance, in the past interfaith marriage was not only frowned upon but something that would likely result in individuals facing exile from the Jewish community. This, for instance, is why most Jews today share so many distinct physical and other characteristics. In searching for some interesting numbers I came upon this article [1] which you might find interesting - it discusses the ongoing "reformation" of Judaism. The reason I put reformation in quotes is because I think it's "reforming" in the way that most religions are today - it's fading. And I think a century it will probably make no more sense to refer to Jews as an ethnic group than it would to refer to Irish Americans as an ethic group today. However, as of today Jews most certainly remain an ethic group by most all facets of the word.

[1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/us/poll-shows-major-shift...