We are 31st when you don't include suicide or accidents FYI.

Why would you not include those?

Because suicides don't violate anyone else's freedoms and accidents are accidents.

Accidents often involve children and negligent adults and I think they should be persecuted (and not solely prosecuted) as it represents a fundamental breach of the responsibility not only of gun-ownership but adult responsibility in that regard.

1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed. 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance. 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm.

My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one.

I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix.

> 1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed.

You can dispute it, but you'd still be wrong.

> 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance.

I understand this position. Unfortunately there are rights involved. Infringing rights should not be done lightly, especially if there are other options. Let's increase mental health services in our communities and eliminate the driving cause of suicidal behaviors if possible before we remove our rights.

> 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm.

Yes, different things are different. I'm not sure your point here. People have accidents while piloting 2 tons of metal every day, which certainly has more kinetic energy at 60mph than a 9mm bullet.

> My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one.

You're going to have to be more clear and precise than that. What do you mean "it doesn't really hold"? People don't care about their freedoms? Or they don't care about my freedoms?

> I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix.

For any example like this, there are examples of defensive gun use that saved lives.

So still well above average?

On gun violence, yes. Violence in general, no

That's surprisingly good considering the number of guns in circulation and ease of obtaining them in general.

Source please. I’m almost certain that includes suicides.

Why wouldn't it?

Because including suicides paints a misleading picture. When you say “gun deaths” with no qualifiers people think murders involving a gun.

I disagree. One of the main arguments against the proliferation of guns is that they're too powerful to have, barring a good reason.

Accidental death (a child getting a hold of one, for example) and suicide are often brought forward as examples of this, alongside murder in a 'heat of the moment' situations.

In fact, I've rarely heard 'predetermined' murder as the primary argument in discussions I've had on the matter (at least over here in Europe). Mostly because murderers who intend to do so with guns will not be deterred by guns being illegal, so it's relatively weak argument.

Why is it misleading? It's mostly impulsive acts of violence. Most, but not all, of it is against the self.

The key method of reducing violence to other people and reducing death by suicide is to reduce access to means.

Reducing access to guns would help both problems.