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Re:The joy of max() by tbodt on Friday March 30, 2018 @06:49PM (#16720467)
> In fact, in Linux we did try C++ once already, back in 1992.

> It sucks. Trust me - writing kernel code in C++ is a BLOODY STUPID IDEA.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2004/1/20/20

Re:The joy of max() by AceJohnny2 on Friday March 30, 2018 @07:28PM (#16720644)
A 14-year old opinion based on a 26-year old experiment.

C++ has evolved tremendously since. There are better arguments.

(and I say this as a C developer who doesn't believe C++ is the right answer)

Re:The joy of max() by rileymat2 on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:19PM (#16721096)
With no solid ABI it is unlikely.
Re:The joy of max() by anarazel on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:26PM (#16721111)
Is that a likely problem for the kernel, actually? Given that there's no API stability, and the fact that syscalls are an explicit ABI anyway, I don't see how that'd matter for linux?

(not that I'm arguing for C++ in linux or such)

Re:The joy of max() by ihalip on Saturday March 31, 2018 @04:53AM (#16722434)
When using C++, you also need to take into account the compiler ABI.
Re:The joy of max() by clappski on Saturday March 31, 2018 @10:38AM (#16723461)
Does that really matter in the context of the Linux kernel, seeing as GCC is the only supported compiler currently?
Re:The joy of max() by rileymat2 on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:29PM (#16721118)
Sorry, Just my sour grapes.

Recently created a third party SDK DLL in c++ and could not pass c++ types natively (unless you coupled to compiler and maybe version of compiler).

Re:The joy of max() by gmueckl on Saturday March 31, 2018 @05:56AM (#16722621)
This is C++ on Windows for you. On Linux, most compilers follow the ABI that GCC created, which has become very stable. I actually cannot name a C++ compiler that doesn't follow that ABI.
Re:The joy of max() by cesarb on Saturday March 31, 2018 @09:55AM (#16723288)
Actually, Linux nowadays uses the Itanium C++ ABI (even on non-IA64 architectures), and AFAIK it was created by Intel, not GCC.
Re:The joy of max() by gmueckl on Saturday March 31, 2018 @11:37AM (#16723703)
I stand corrected. Indeed, the Itanium ABI defined by Intel is the base.

The important part is that it is used by most, if not all, C++ compilers on that platform.

Re:The joy of max() by pjmlp on Saturday March 31, 2018 @04:01PM (#16724901)
Which is why any Windows developer that wants to export OO libraries uses COM instead, with the benefit that any Windows compiler that can speak COM is able to use the library.

UWP now even supports generics and actual inheritance.

Re:The joy of max() by garmaine on Saturday March 31, 2018 @03:37AM (#16722240)
Kernel modules?
Re:The joy of max() by jjnoakes on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:38PM (#16721154)
One can use the C ABI with C++.
Re:The joy of max() by Buge on Friday March 30, 2018 @11:02PM (#16721440)
How does that work with templates, overloading, operators, etc?
Re:The joy of max() by loeg on Friday March 30, 2018 @11:21PM (#16721498)
They aren't exposed to ABI surfaces. Only C compatible stuff would be.
Re:The joy of max() by ygra on Saturday March 31, 2018 @02:53AM (#16722131)
Cf. e.g. Microsoft's CRT implementation, which uses C++ by now, but still exposes a C API.
Re:The joy of max() by pjmlp on Saturday March 31, 2018 @03:59PM (#16724883)
On Windows that ABI is COM, on Windows 10 it was updated to UWP and is quite feature rich, even if it doesn't support 100% C++ features.
Re:The joy of max() by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Friday March 30, 2018 @07:36PM (#16720682)
This was 14 years ago. In that time

* C++ has advanced considerably, and features like constexpr, lambas, unique_ptr, etc make writing code easier without runtime overhead.

* The C Compiler that Linux uses, is now written in C++

* Clang tidy checks make it relatively easy to keep problematic C++ features out.

The fact that C++ is largely a superset of C means that just like GCC did, there can be a gradual migration of code.

Re:The joy of max() by userbinator on Friday March 30, 2018 @08:07PM (#16720823)
C++ has advanced considerably

...and gained considerable complexity in the process. (I'm aware that C has gained some too, but not to the extent of C++.)

Re:The joy of max() by ovao on Friday March 30, 2018 @10:44PM (#16721381)
It's a true statement that C++ has gained considerable complexity since those days, largely due to the C++ committee's very religious approach to compatibility. How that added complexity has influenced how complex C++ applications must be is a discussion with considerably more nuance.
Re:The joy of max() by netheril96 on Saturday March 31, 2018 @02:27AM (#16722047)
C language is simple, and the result is this considerably complex piece of implementation instead.
Re:The joy of max() by mehrdadn on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:10PM (#16721065)
And I'd wager the Linux kernel has become more complex in the past couple decades too. But so what?
Re:The joy of max() by okket on Saturday March 31, 2018 @09:53AM (#16723279)
I'd argue: Yes, this is true. But you need at least on stable part in the toolchain for the kernel to get reliable results. You can't have your hammer transform to a screwdriver just because you swing it in the other direction. And if there is such a tool/case, you need to be absolutely sure how and when it behaves this way, on every possible platform.

This is not the case for evolving C++.

Re:The joy of max() by mehrdadn on Saturday March 31, 2018 @04:01PM (#16724897)
To me this situation is more more like having a screwdriver that can only be screwed with hammers from a particular manufacturer (Linux -> GCC), because that manufacturer is the only one that makes hammers with screw-driving tips that work with that particular screw head (non-portable macros for type-checking or whatever goes on there). You might as well just get a normal screwdriver (C++ compiler) and a normal screw (C++ program) like the rest of the world does -- and there's no implication that you have to keep changing screw tips (-std=c++??) every time Apple (standards committee) decides to come up with a new format (C++17).
Re:The joy of max() by JdeBP on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:34AM (#16734305)
If you are going to argue that, then you need to look again at the headlined item, where it was not the case that it behaved the same on every possible platform. It is a non-standard mechanism of one compiler, that was picked based upon a compromise decision about what versions even of that one compiler it would actually work with.
Re:The joy of max() by iforgotpassword on Saturday March 31, 2018 @09:38AM (#16723236)
The problem is that you can't always require people to use the latest bleeding edge version to build your code. Especially the Linux kernel has quite some requirements for backwards compat.

And yes, the fact that abi stability isn't really a thing in c++ land is a huge problem too. It has been tried before with beos and it sucked.