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Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by mehrdadn on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:21PM (#16675508)
> It was true at Google.

Yes, because Google is not your average company. It takes security extremely seriously... in fact it's about as awful of an example as you can give for a blanket statement you made about "most companies".

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by harryh on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:24PM (#16675531)
OK you're right that I overstated when I said "most companies." What I meant to say was most companies of the size and sophistication of Facebook that have a significant amount of private user information. Sorry for not being clear.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by ajross on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:50PM (#16675682)
> What I meant to say was most companies of the size and sophistication of Facebook that have a significant amount of private user information.

Which is to say... Google and Amazon?

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by tptacek on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:25PM (#16675538)
If you add "and notoriety" to that list of qualifiers, I agree with you!
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by harryh on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:28PM (#16675553)
I'm comfortable with such a qualification. Glad we can violently agree. ;-)
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by tptacek on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:29PM (#16675560)
That's a really short list of companies, though! There are a lot of companies that each independently hold a ghastly amount of information about random people that have virtually no meaningful controls over this stuff. "No meaningful controls" is the norm.

I'd also say it's the norm among most Fortune 500 non-tech companies.

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by RhodesianHunter on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:35PM (#16675599)
Yep. Equifax, Experian and Transunion come to mind.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by tptacek on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:36PM (#16675612)
Consider also every large adtech firm.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kasey_junk on Sunday March 25, 2018 @10:37PM (#16676187)
Even the very largest adtech firms don’t have messenger apps used by millions of people, social graphs of the population or control of large swaths of the internet infrastructure.

That’s not to say I disagree with you, but the data collected is (to me) orders of magnitude less sensitive.

*disclosure: I toil in the adtech mines.

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by harryh on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:31PM (#16675887)
These are great counterpoints to the view I expressed and does make me reconsider my assumptions somewhat. Thanks!
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by collingreene on Sunday March 25, 2018 @10:31PM (#16676167)
Internal abuse is a big area of effort for Facebook and google but things still go wrong. Here was googles moment for that back in 2010:

https://www.wired.com/2010/09/google-spy/

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by renaudg on Monday March 26, 2018 @01:59AM (#16676935)
> Google is not your average company. It takes security extremely seriously

While this is certainly true, you've admitted elsewhere not knowing anything specifically about either Google or Facebook's security process, so how can you compare them ? You seem to just "know" Facebook doesn't take security seriously (which is of course a ludicrous thing to say)

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by mehrdadn on Monday March 26, 2018 @02:07AM (#16676974)
> While this is certainly true, you've admitted elsewhere not knowing anything specifically about either Google or Facebook's security process

You already misquoted me once and I already replied to you. Why do you ignore it and do it again? Like I said: no, I never "admitted elsewhere not knowing anything specifically about either Google or Facebook's security process". You are misquoting me again just like you already did in [1], and it's quite improper that you choose to do this when I have already responded to you and called out your misrepresentation there. If you are looking for a response, see that post. If you are not, then please stop.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16676704

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by renaudg on Monday March 26, 2018 @08:30AM (#16678323)
I am most definitely not misrepresenting you.

People like me or [1] have called you out because you keep contrasting Google and Facebook's internal security processes for no good reason, making definitive assertions like "[Google] takes security very seriously" [2], suggesting that Facebook doesn't and should do "Whatever Google does" [3]. And you're doing this not based on any specific knowledge of what the internal security process looks like at either company, but on your (flawed) perception of what engineering interns might or might not be able to do.

When people like esman1 who actually have that knowledge and context, volunteer to explain to you [4] some of the safeguards in place (and he told you the truth), instead of taking the point, you won't have any of what he says and keep going at it stubbornly.

I think this is the point where reasonable people stop arguing, and anyone else who cares can check your comments in this thread and make their own opinion.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675843 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675508 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675707 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675670

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Sunday March 25, 2018 @08:54PM (#16675706)
I'm not sure if Google even has an internal red team that performs breaches, last time I talked with someone there at a conference they didn't (that was 2016). So I am not sure Google has metrics on how easy it is to gain access by an adversary.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by mehrdadn on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:01PM (#16675744)
> I'm not sure if Google even has an internal red team, last time I talked with someone there they didn't (was 18 months ago though).

2012: Google staffs up ‘Red Team’

And this was literally just a Google away: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/08/24/google-red-team-...

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:04PM (#16675754)
Red team is an overloaded term: "Analyze software and services from a privacy perspective, ensuring they are in line with Google's stated privacy policies, practices, and the expectations of our users." Doesn't sound like adversary simulation to me.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kyrra on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:08PM (#16675777)
https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/security-e...

The job even lists insider threat as part of their responsibility.

Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:29PM (#16675879)
Yeah, still not the same as actually performing breaches themselves to see how long it takes to compromise, and if they get detected and how long it takes to remediate and evict the adversary. I should have been a bit clearer with what I meant initially.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by sulam on Sunday March 25, 2018 @10:26PM (#16676138)
How do you know there isn’t a team at Google doing this? It’s standard practice at companies of even middling size and Google is so large your friend might just be unaware of it.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Sunday March 25, 2018 @10:46PM (#16676218)
A Google security manager told me at a conference when chatting about this in 2016. They were thinking of staffing a breach team, but did not have one then.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by mehrdadn on Monday March 26, 2018 @03:02AM (#16677158)
I thought Project Zero tries to find vulnerabilities in Google stuff too?
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Monday March 26, 2018 @03:52PM (#16681916)
Project Zero is different compared to performing end to end breaches. A breach team might use 0-days of Project Zero to actually compromise Google's internal assets to see if their defenders can detect an adversary. FB has such a team and they gave public presentations (one was at RuxCon 2016) how they compromise for instance their domain controllers and stuff.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by debatem1 on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:19PM (#16675821)
Google has a gaggle of security teams, almost all of which occasionally red team and some of which exclusively do. I'm not sure who told you otherwise but they were certainly mistaken. Source: I TL'd a security team there several years ago.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by kerng on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:38PM (#16675923)
Thanks for pointing this out. I heard it from a security manager at Google at a conference in 2016. Good to hear that they do breach simulations now, besides regular pen testing and stuff.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by srj on Sunday March 25, 2018 @11:07PM (#16676315)
I'm not sure if there was miscommunication or what, but Google has had teams that do this for a while now. I typically hear them referred to as orange teams.
Re:Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees by mrb on Sunday March 25, 2018 @11:21PM (#16676368)
I worked in 2014-2015 at Google on one of the (many) teams that did exactly that.