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Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:25PM (#16669882)
From the article you link:

"But thousands of other developers, including the makers of games such as FarmVille and the dating app Tinder, as well as political consultants from President Barack Obama’s 2012 presidential campaign, also siphoned huge amounts of data about users and their friends, developing deep understandings of people’s relationships and preferences."

Last I checked, Farmville was not associated with OFA. So you need to back up your assertion "All the rest of them were subject to relatively strict controls, requiring months or years to collect even a small fraction of the data that the Obama app was allowed to collect. " and explain why this also renders the entire dataset collected by CA to be completely harmless, in contrast to the current narrative. Because it's not that interesting if a relatively benign political organization got a little more data than another which used it to impose the will of a foreign enemy upon the US electorate.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:38PM (#16669926)
There’s a massive difference between Farmville et al and the OFA app. Facebook had limits in place that constrained the ratio between the number of friend profiles that were allowed to be accessed and the number of people that had explicitly authorized the app. They were a black box on this issue, but for example I had apps that were stopped from accessing deep profile information of friends (likes, occupation, etc.) when I reached 10:1. OFA’s ratio was in the 200:1 neighborhood.

It was somewhat possible to overcome this by spreading the collection out of a number of months or years, which is what I believe the Kogan app did. But even in that case, with the data collection spread out over a long period of time, they had nowhere near the data that the Obama campaign was allowed access to. Finally, the CA data was years old, while the Obama data was allowed to stay fresh right up to election day because they had no API limits.

So these apps with much larger install bases than Obama could have ever dreamed of had access to less data than OFA did because their ratio was not allowed to be as ridiculously asymmetric as Obama’s was. They still had access to large amounts of data, but only because of their massive authorized install bases (which in all of the cases you mention were far larger than the OFA install base). But none had the entire US social graph - with the exception of OFA.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by MarkMc on Sunday March 25, 2018 @01:16AM (#16670882)
Are you sure that Farmville didn't have a 200:1 ratio?

It certainly looks suspicious, but I don't think you can rule out the profit motive. Perhaps in 2012 Facebook's position was, "If you pay us enough money we'll remove the API limits"

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Sunday March 25, 2018 @01:44AM (#16670944)
Farmville had a massive install base. So they weren’t accessing that much data relative to the number of people that had directly authorized their app. The difference between it and the Obama app was the leverage that was allowed: less than 1 million people gave them access to their data, and they were able to use that to get deep profile data on nearly every US Facebook user - ~200 million accounts. Their attempts to do this set off all kinds of alarms, but Facebook went in and manually shut those alarms off and opened the floodgates to the data. Our data.

Considering that at least half of them - ~100 million people - would have consciously objected to helping Obama do anything, much less get elected, that should have been earth shatteringly scandalous and probably should have buried Facebook right then and there. But instead, the press celebrated this technique, right up until it helped create a result other than the one it wanted.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by MarkMc on Sunday March 25, 2018 @03:40AM (#16671196)
There are two questions here:

(1) Was Facebook biased in favor of the Democratic party?

(2) Should the press have been more critical of the way personal data was used for political purposes?

My answer to (1) is 'probably', but maybe Facebook would have been willing to "manually shut those alarms off and open the floodgates to the data" for anyone who gave them a million dollars?

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:51PM (#16669966)
> OFA’s ratio was in the 200:1 neighborhood ratio.

Great, what's your source for that data ?

> So these apps with much larger install bases than Obama could have ever dreamed of had access to less data than OFA did because their ratio was allowed to be so ridiculously asymmetric. They still had access to large amounts of data because of their massive authorized install bases. But none had the entire US social graph.

Nevertheless, they didn't seek to hoist a fascist leader apparently controlled by a foreign enemy on the US. It is perfectly fine that OFA and other organizations should not have this kind of access either. But this is whataboutism. Its truth or not does not mean the CA situation is not revealing of an enormous problem.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @09:03PM (#16670001)
OFA’s ratio was in the 200:1 neighborhood ratio

Great, what's your source for that data ?

My source is that I can do math. The campaign admits it had “the entire US social graph”. With ~200 million US Facebook profiles, and less than 1 million people that actually authorized Obama’s app, we come out with a ratio of roughly 200:1.

Its truth or not does not mean the CA situation is not revealing of an enormous problem.

It revealed an enormous problem when Obama did it (and worse, with Facebook’s approval). It only became an issue for the press, though, when they failed to manipulate the election in the way they wanted. I’m actually not an advocate of Trump - I’m just saying that this was either wrong or it wasn’t, regardless of who did it. In truth, they both did it. Obama just did it on a vastly larger scale.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @09:56PM (#16670213)
The statement made in the article:

"In 2011, Carol Davidsen, director of data integration and media analytics for Obama for America, built a database of every American voter using the same Facebook developer tool used by Cambridge, known as the social graph API. "

is ridiculous. There are millions of voters who have never had a Facebook account, and lots more back in 2011. They are handwaving, and this is not data. You have little basis to use qualitative, exaggerative terms like "vastly more" and you also don't know what kinds of access Cambridge Analytica may have had that differs from the data limits you experienced in your own development.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @10:06PM (#16670254)
You have little basis to use qualitative, exaggerative terms like "vastly more"

Obama took data from ~200 million people ("the entire US social graph" is unambiguous). The CA incident involves ~50 million profiles. I think a difference of 150 million is "vastly more". That's not exaggeration, that's math. It was wrong in either case, but one did it on a vastly larger scale.

You can sit here splitting hairs and arguing with the specific wording of my comments and the articles backing this up, or you can say "yes, it was wrong in principle" which is what any objective person would do. Democrats and Republicans alike do bad things sometimes. Are you actually trying to defend the actions of any party involved in any of this?

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Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by seabird on Sunday March 25, 2018 @03:19AM (#16671152)
>which is because it did not have a catastrophic outcome at the time

The problem with that statement is that you believe it was a catastrophic outcome. For the first time in history, media and new technology is able to instantly tell you if the president has so much as sneezed while the sitting president is a (highly controversial) Republican. Obama was considered a nightmare scenario for the American right, and if you listened to the right outlets, you heard every single one of Obama's missteps. Every poor decision, embarrassing association, or undelivered promise was constantly paraded as grounds for impeachment, but social media and what many consider "neutral" news sources have a noticeable progressive bent, and the Obama administration got the benefit of the doubt more often than not.

The Obama administration deported more undocumented immigrants than every past president minus HW Bush combined. The Obama administration killed over 3700 people (over 300 of which were civilians) in drone strikes. In that regard, Obama reportedly said that it "Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine." Attorney General Eric Holder was the first US cabinet member to be held in contempt of Congress, and Obama exercised executive privilege to support Holder's decision to withhold documents pertaining to Fast and Furious.

Most US citizens who actively use social media don't know those things (among many other controversies) happened, but they sure as shit know that "Donald Trump gets two scoops of ice cream", and constantly beat the dead "covfefe" horse; you can swipe right on Snapchat or Twitter to that social media company's curated news page and instantly hear every single slip-up and hot take that Trump has. This notion of a "catastrophic outcome" largely exists because for the first time, news outlets are at odds with the administration in the age of mass media.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Sunday March 25, 2018 @10:22AM (#16672283)
The drone strikes we're widely reported, everyone knew about them and the American right was completely in favor of them. They were also in favor of the deportations which we liberals are also well aware of. Fast and furious was widely reported. You've basically listed all the major disasters of Obama's presidency (the day to day bullshit listed on talk radio is just that) and there is simply no comparison to what is happening now and the things you refer to were also widely reported by the media.

It is of course a rote and entirely predictable exercise to take my statement that "this is a catastrophe", turn it around and say, "well Obama was a catastrophe for the right". I'm here to say that this is a false equivalency and the right has lost its mind. The conservative view of Obama is equivalent to the liberal view of Bush, that's a lot more reasonable. But the right has not has their "liberal Trump", and it is perfectly fine that they never will.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @10:30PM (#16670325)
because it did not have a catastrophic outcome at that time. This time it did.

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But do you not detect even a whiff of hypocrisy in this whole thing? It should have been portrayed as the terrible thing that it is today back when Obama did it. That is what I have an issue with.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by grzm on Saturday March 24, 2018 @10:35PM (#16670340)
Which is more important to you, pointing out hypocrisy in others or taking advantage of an increase in the number of people who share you belief that this is something that should be fixed? I can understand possibly be worried that they may be "fair-weather friends" or some such, but by focusing on the common ground rather than on infighting, you may help build a non-partisan coalition that might effect real change. Yeah, I can understand the frustration, but quibbling amongst ourselves only serves a common enemy. Let's use the momentum to move forward.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @11:03PM (#16670445)
I’d welcome a non-partisan coalition that would fight the bias of the press, which led to this and many other issues. Unfortunately, such a group will never form because most of the press either endorses or excuses everything done by the left, and castigates everything done by the right. No more clear example of that exists than this situation.

Therefore, the left has no incentive to fight the bias of the press, because it favors their side on nearly every issue. The ironic part is that by making the misuse of Facebook data acceptable (even celebrated) when Obama did it, the press may have inadvertently helped Trump get elected years later. They’re upset now, but they’re just trying to put the genie that they unleashed back in the bottle. We reap what we sow.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by grzm on Saturday March 24, 2018 @11:09PM (#16670475)
So, the answer is to continue reinforcing the divisiveness and polarization, giving up because it's others that are causing the issue? That's one of the ways we got to the point we're at. Sounds defeatist to me, and something I'm not willing to do. I encourage you not to, either.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @11:18PM (#16670502)
I’m an Independent. I find it harder and harder to stay in the middle because the views of everyone else - on both sides - are so extreme. It would be wonderful to get rid of divisiveness and polarization. But in the imperfect world in which we live, it seems that the only way to even try to bring a little sanity back to things is to point out hypocrisy wherever I see it, and hope those that are practicing it feel ridiculous enough when they are exposed that they change their ways.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by grzm on Saturday March 24, 2018 @11:38PM (#16670581)
Where you stand on the (multi-axis) political spectrum doesn't matter if the actions you're taking continue to divide people and work against your goals. Pointing out hypocrisy in others may feel good and righteous in the moment, but puts people on the defensive and they stop listening to you: it's a remarkably poor way to get someone to change their behavior. People don't respond well if you're intent is to make them feel ridiculous. It's just a part of typical human psychology, and one you're working against if your goal is to actually make a change.

Does yelling at your computer make it work better? (Perhaps an increasingly poor example in the age where voice commands are becoming popular.) Or figuring out what's wrong and doing what needs to be done to fix it? Gotta work with the facts on the ground, not how you think it should be. And maybe by doing so, you can move what is towards what should be.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by Covzire on Sunday March 25, 2018 @12:35AM (#16670791)
I find the idea that you shouldn't point out hypocrisy because it might trigger divisiveness, divisive. It stinks of a desire to shut down debate because it's not going the way you want.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by grzm on Sunday March 25, 2018 @12:55AM (#16670835)
What's your goal? What do you actually want to accomplish in the end? I'm asking in all seriousness. And following up, how do you plan to accomplish that goal?

In the case of working for user data privacy, we're working against companies that are benefiting from the data they collect and their lobbyists, as well as people who aren't aware of the situation and often only see the benefits of the apps they're using. And those people cross many demographic and political lines. I don't think user privacy is a partisan issue. It's going to be an uphill battle. You think pointing out all of the differences and disagreements of those who don't agree with you, all of the inconsistencies you see in their positions is going to help? I sincerely don't think so.

The point isn't that pointing out hypocrisy is wrong, it's that it gets in the way of your goals.

If it's more important to you to point out those inconsistencies than improve the user privacy situation, I think you have your priorities wrong. If you think you can only remedy the user privacy situation by first correcting their inconsistencies, I think that's wrong-headed and doomed to failure on both counts. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion and free to disregard mine.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @10:56PM (#16670421)
no not really, here is an example: the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. It was serious, there were six deaths, but it wasn't a catastrophe. I was living in NYC at that time, and for me, I realized there were terrorists trying to blow up parts of New York City and quite frankly it scared the crap out of me from that point on how insecure things were, how easy it would be for the WTC (a building I worked in a few times) to be attacked again. But this was not a very widespread sentiment. The problem (terrorists targeting NYC) was there, but the catastrophic outcome was not.

Then of course terrorists from roughly the same organization tried again on the same building eight years later and it was the largest attack in US history by orders of magnitude. Terrorism proceeded to become the key societal and political issue pretty much for a whole generation.

The problem was there for a long time, the hazard was there for a long time, but it's only when we get the catastrophic outcome; e.g. the Uber car actually killed someone, the plane actually crashed, the WTC was actually destroyed, it's largely rational that that is when lots of people care. There's nothing unusual or hypocritical about it.

You might not think the outcome of this election was catastrophic but the reporters who cover the government and the white house do. They know the norms and customs that have been in place for many decades and they see that they've been ripped to shreds in just a little over a year. They know this is a catastrophe and they are rightfully trying to shine a light on every possible thing that we can get at to both patch the situation and hopefully prevent it from happening again.

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by oculusthrift on Saturday March 24, 2018 @09:15PM (#16670043)
lol. so your answer is you have no proof. people exaggerate all the time when they say things like "entire social graph". Do you have any data that in 2012, 200 million unique americans were using facebook? And that obama had specific permission to bypass facebook's limit and get the 200:1 ratio?
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by downandout on Saturday March 24, 2018 @09:49PM (#16670196)
The data speaks for itself. Read it. As for proof that they got special permissions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16669576

Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by thotaway on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:26PM (#16669885)
FarmVille had the benefit of being owned by an early Facebook investor, Mark Pincus. It was favoritism all around.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:33PM (#16669906)
And Peter Thiel, who was a funder of Cambridge Analytica [1], sits on the board of Facebook, and he also worked directly on the Trump campaign. So there's some extremely fertile ground for favoritism there as well.

[1] https://mashable.com/2018/03/22/facebook-peter-thiel-cambrid...

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Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:46PM (#16669955)
Nor was Farmville a political organization so perhaps read what I wrote more carefully.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by ineedasername on Saturday March 24, 2018 @08:54PM (#16669982)
Not political? It's only the biggest pro-Farma lobbying effort ever. ConAgra and Monsanto's fingerprints were all over that "game" /s
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by zzzeek on Saturday March 24, 2018 @09:48PM (#16670190)
Agree, Facebook was always in cahoots with Big Farma.
Re:Facebook was warned about app permissions in 2011 by ineedasername on Sunday March 25, 2018 @09:20AM (#16672051)
sorry if it wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to troll, just a little tongue-in-cheek Southpark humor