News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by novum on Sunday September 05, 2010 @04:03PM (#1665058)
(Disclaimer: I work at Salesforce)

We at SFDC hear a lot about offers to businesses of "your own private cloud", which is essentially marketing jargon for something very un-cloud-like: running software locally, on your own servers, while you're completely responsible for the entire operation. It's a grossly disingenuous hijacking of the "cloud" terminology that I've found promotes confusion.

Most of the other responses here would match my own definition of the cloud: software, offered as a service, where all the underpinnings (data center management, software updates, redundancies, reliability) are abstracted away from you. The key is that you only need two things to access a cloud resource:

  A web browser, preferably != IE6
  An internet connection
When I explain the cloud to people who don't read HN, I usually make a comparison to Gmail and MS Office. You access Gmail through your web browser, and there's no local software to download. When Google releases a new feature or a bugfix or a security patch, there's no action required on your end. You're simply up to date the next time you connect.

Contrast that with MS Office, which comes on a CD/DVD, requires a local install process, and needs to be constantly patched for features and security. All of the work to maintain that software falls to you, the end user.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by rmc00 on Sunday September 05, 2010 @07:03PM (#1665376)
If you don't mind, I'm curious to find out why you view the private cloud as un-cloud-like. I don't think the cloud is defined by where the service is hosted or even how the service is paid for. To me, cloud computing is defined by 3 big ideas.

1. Virtualization is key. I think the cloud is marked by a construction from dynamic pools of virtualized resources.

2. Instead of focusing on individual physical components, the cloud focuses on pools of compute resources. This seems to have led to higher priority for service delivery.

3. Finally, I think the cloud is defined by being convenient for the consumer instead of being convenient for the provider.

Within those constraints, I usually call a cloud private if it is under the control of an enterprise IT organization, in a way similar to older systems. I think of the cloud as public if the provider is mostly in control instead of the tenants.

With that definition of the private cloud in mind, the model offers a lot of advantages to larger IT departments. The private cloud allows IT teams to more quickly provision resources in support of business initiatives. It's also a better way to invest in IT infrastructure. The model is inherently scalable, which means that IT funds can be used to create value instead of keeping the lights on so to speak.

Obviously, private clouds aren't for every IT organization, but I think the private cloud has merit. As organizations globalize and just generally get big, economies of scale can be leveraged internally to increase the quality of IT projects and services.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by Goladus on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:28PM (#1665523)
I agree. A private cloud should also have a standard API, so that applications can be conveniently moved to a public cloud when it is secure and cost-effective to do so.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:44PM (#1665546)
There; I disagree - if there were a standard API for clouds I might agree - otherwise, it makes sense for internal clouds to adopt the API most convenient for the end-users of that API. Sadly, that might mean something like SOAP, which would make me sad.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @07:17PM (#1665403)
Exceedingly well put
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @06:39PM (#1665335)
I can't buy that "hosted apps" qualify as "cloud" - that means Hotmail, Yahoo mail and every single rich application on the internet, ever, qualifies as "cloud". We have a word for that - Internet.

I think a much more apt - and something more applicable to SFDC, is anything which exposes "architectural resources" - such as Platform, Storage, or Compute as a service/hosted system is a much better, and cleaner a term then throwing applications built on cloud technology into the mix. The cloud is the dynamic, elastic, "on demand" of resources, not the utilization of those resources.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by nl on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:44PM (#1665544)
I can't buy that "hosted apps" qualify as "cloud" - that means Hotmail, Yahoo mail and every single rich application on the internet, ever, qualifies as "cloud".

Yes.

We have a word for that - Internet.

You noticed that? :)

I think a much more apt - and something more applicable to SFDC, is anything which exposes "architectural resources" - such as Platform, Storage, or Compute as a service/hosted system is a much better, and cleaner a term then throwing applications built on cloud technology into the mix. The cloud is the dynamic, elastic, "on demand" of resources, not the utilization of those resources.

I think you are right, kind of. Developers talk about cloud computing, cloud storage etc to distinguish it from their traditional services.

However, non-developers don't see it like that. They see "email" as a resource, and the ability to elastically grow their email service as making it "in the cloud".

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @09:40PM (#1665599)
Here's a thought I've been toying with since reading your reply:

I think, as a term passed to non technical or lightly technical end-users, "the cloud" is largely useless. The cloud is not an "end user" feature except in the features that a cloud-based architecture might bring.

Taking your example - end users should never hear about "the cloud" when discussing email. All they care about is a hosted application that "just works" - having it based "on the cloud" is uninteresting, except by the features it brings with it, which they reap the benefits of.

So, maybe trying to use it when discussing things outside of mostly technical (IT personell, Devops folks, developers) is mostly useless except to denote a very specific (scalability, uptime) set of features and even then you're better off not talking about "the cloud" but the specific features, which are tangible to them.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by nl on Sunday September 05, 2010 @09:46PM (#1665612)
Many of the people who talk about "the cloud" and - perhaps more importantly - spend money on it are only quasi-technical.

They are CIO's and managers in charge of purchasing an email solution. They know they need a "cloud strategy", and vendors are quite happy to tell them their solution is "cloud based" if it make them happy.

So yes - it's mostly useless as a technical term.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @09:56PM (#1665626)
Actually, I was wondering the inverse - if using the cloud is only useful as a technical term rather then using it for some faceless/mindless strategy to a CIO or Manager.

Take for example, cloud storage. I would not sell "the cloud" part to a person, rather, I would sell them the fact that it's hosted and highly reliable, infinitely scalable, pay as you go and cheap compared to a local storage cluster buildout.

I wouldn't sell them the cloud part, as not all things in, on and around the cloud inherit all the features the cloud might bring (meaning, you can screw up an architecture no matter where it's implemented).

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by nl on Sunday September 05, 2010 @11:20PM (#1665752)
What you are saying makes perfect sense.

But unfortunately many times the people with the budget don't actually care about the features. The word "cloud" is important to them because their CEO read about it in a glossy magazine, so they need to be "cloud enabled"

You need to be careful, though because sometimes "cloud" is seen as a negative. I've seen companies that state "We don't believe in the cloud and we have a purchasing policy that excludes any cloud based solutions" - but then you dig deeper and find how proud they are of the "hosted solution" they bought from a vendor because of the way they don't have to pay for capacity until they use it.

Sigh..

(Advice for young players: Enterprise sales will kill your soul)

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by dgudkov on Monday September 06, 2010 @04:23AM (#1666241)
"it's hosted and highly reliable, infinitely scalable, pay as you go and cheap"

You can say it shorter - it's cloud.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by Goladus on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:23PM (#1665516)
Sometimes in a casual conversation it is convenient shorthand to refer to a use of a hosted app as "on the cloud," even if technically speaking "hosted apps" don't qualify as "cloud." It means basically "running on a system where I don't have to care about administration of the computing resources," and hotmail certainly qualifies.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by jnoller on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:35PM (#1665534)
I don't know how much we disagree - except that using the term "cloud based" denotes that your infrastructure is "elsewhere" and your application rests on top of it.

It does not, however, make your application "the cloud" - hosted applications are just that; hosted applications. Hotmail is not a cloud application, it might have a cloud back end, it might run on Azure, etc, etc but it's not "the cloud"

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by ryanelkins on Sunday September 05, 2010 @04:19PM (#1665084)
Perhaps some of the disconnect is that it's not easily explainable to non techie types without going in to more detail. The Gmail/Office example you gave holds true for any web app, regardless of it is hosted on Force.com, a $9/mo hosting plan, or a server I run out of my apartment. Computational power as a commodity resource is a little more in depth than most people probably care to go, but it leaves many with the impression that the internet is the cloud.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by novum on Sunday September 05, 2010 @04:23PM (#1665094)
Good point, and an important distinction to make for more technical audiences. Scalable, elastic pay-as-you-go architecture is a key attribute of cloud computing as well.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by auxbuss on Sunday September 05, 2010 @07:18PM (#1665406)
Your requirements describe a web-site. Nothing more.

Also, your alternative explanations are very Microsoft/Windows focused.

I find your definition of the cloud as very confusing and very limiting.

Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by delano on Sunday September 05, 2010 @04:07PM (#1665064)
Do you really use SFDC as shorthand for SalesForce.com or was that a riff?
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by ricardo on Sunday September 05, 2010 @08:51PM (#1665552)
I've worked with a lot of Salesforce.com partners and customers and the acronym SFDC is universally used.
Re:Ask HN: What does "the Cloud" mean to you? by novum on Sunday September 05, 2010 @04:20PM (#1665087)
We use SFDC very widely internally, and I've also seen it occasionally on Twitter/FB.