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Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by Hasknewbie on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:24PM (#16642024)
I can see that Bloomberg is still bloomberging:

First paragraph:

>> "Poland: reasonable strategy roiled by leftist impulses."

The current government is a far right Catholic party that has just enacted a law partly denying the Holocaust (somewhat related to this, one of their senator sparked a scandal by posting actual Nazi propaganda online), and the country may have its EU voting right suspended due to the administration's attacks against the judiciary. But yeah the most important thing is that one of their economical policy happens to be left-leaning.

On the economist Thomas Piketty:

>> "Last month, the anti-capitalist economist wrote about ..."

Piketty is left-leaning, not "anti-capitalist".

Caption of a Piketty photograph:

>> "Only academic. Until now."

Piketty has been a (prominent) advisor for politicians on the French left for at least a decade.

You go Bloomberg "News". You keep doing you.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by the_nozzle on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:41PM (#16642177)
Pump your breaks there kid - the only thing that is being denied is that occupied Poland had anything to do with the installment of the holocaust by the Germans (they were next in line to the chimney). As much as I don't like the asshats from PiS, I do understand where they are coming from, after seeing "Polish concentration camps" in the western press on a monthly basis. To your other point - most of the polish judiciary has roots in the communist prosecution apparatus and is actively shielding all of the assholes that had a soft landing after the "toppling" of the communist government. Fuck'em.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by nkkollaw on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:53PM (#16642293)
> most of the polish judiciary has roots in the communist prosecution apparatus and is actively shielding all of the assholes that had a soft landing after the "toppling" of the communist government

I was under the impression that most of the people that were working as judges during the Soviet occupation are now dead or retired..?

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by bobthechef on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:23PM (#16642557)
He didn't say they were all judges. He said they had roots in the Communist establishment (his focus is on the deeply embedded secret police, but it goes beyond that). You also have Communist/post-Communist dynasties and clans where power is inherited and shared through ties and nepotistic practices stemming from the Communist period.

It's nice to think that the fall of Communism automatically led to the wholesale liquidation of the Communist establishment, but that's fabular, and after you think about it, quite a silly thing to expect. It would be disastrous to simply remove them without having prepared to replace them. When a certain establishment had been running the state for half a century, with all its ties and knowledge and competencies, you couldn't just expel them all just like that. They and they alone have been running the state for almost 50 years! (Especially given that the pre-War elites were either exterminated by the Nazis and the Soviets, or fled the country, or whatever, but outsiders unless they joined the ranks of the People's Republic).

So, unless you manage this transition somehow with the end goal of reducing if not disrupting the continuation of that corrupt establishment[0], an establishment known for profiting for its own selfish gains[1] and trained by Moscow to function as essentially colonial puppets of foreign interest, you still have a problem.

[0] Not everyone in that establishment was corrupt, of course.

[1] Hence the actual way in which state assets were privatized, often for funny money to foreign owners, sometimes for liquidation and removing domestic sources of competition, and in ways where former party apparatchiks and the like profited from their sale.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by nkkollaw on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:45PM (#16643612)
Would you compare the change from being part of the USSR to a republic to a change of government from Monarchy to republic? I think you just start over.

I'm not Polish so I don't know the situation exactly, but it's also been 30 years. I live in Poland and I see nothing even remotely resembling communism (besides the ugly Soviet buildings they haven't demolished yet). I think the government is using this as a scapegoat to push their agenda, but that's just an impression.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by classicsnoot on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:14PM (#16644525)
Poland was a part of the Eastern Bloc, not the USSR.

It is incredibly naive to think that a regime change somehow means all of the social and status networks just magically change. That is as silly as believing that a change in President == a change in bureaucracy.

I dream of living in Poland, or Czechia, someday. I know it isn't perfect, but it seems honest.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by the_nozzle on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:02PM (#16642378)
Most of the supreme court judges still hail from the old system (not sure of the average age but it's got to be around 70). Communism/socialism was in a slow decline when they started their careers, but that does not change the fact that they swore their fealty to the communist party.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by nkkollaw on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:47PM (#16643629)
So you really think that because they swore to the Communist party 30 years ago they still push that agenda, even though it was a foreign power, that doesn't even exist anymore..?
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by dozzie on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:34PM (#16642105)
> The current government is a far right Catholic party [...]

More like "far center, a little to the left", with a twist for religion and nationalism. It doesn't have that much with being pro capitalism.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by ergo14 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:47PM (#16642246)
And conservatism. It is hard to categorize them easly, but they don't seem to be center of political scene in my opinon.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by baq on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:31PM (#16642609)
They're national socialists. They don't like aliens, want to be in control of everything they deem important and are perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society. They gave everyone with more than one child free money. They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'. They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.)
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by lainga on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:03PM (#16642857)
Why bring up Putin? It is possible to be in NATO but not the EU.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by baq on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:13PM (#16642925)
Because there's no third option. It's either the EU or Russia; there's no independent in-between possible. NATO won't help with a self-inflicted economic and geographic squeeze.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by bobthechef on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:21PM (#16642973)
You're parroting an extremely twisted line touted by some media sources. You must realize how absurd it is to call them national socialists given the accepted meaning of that term. It's actually quite clownish.

W.r.t. aliens, that's nonsense. Even the article mentions Ukrainian immigration. For the record, Poland took in what were effectively ~1 million Ukrainian refugees and immigrants because of, you know, that war still being waged by Russia that the West keeps forgetting about. Germany and other Western countries didn't take in any Ukrainians. Poland refused to take in migrants during the migrant crisis for a number of reasons, including: refusal to acquiesce to Merkel's dictates after having she had utterly bungled that affair (most migrants aren't even Syrian refugees); migrants who had arrived in Poland and elsewhere eventually left and moved to Germany or Sweden anyway; Poland is largely homogeneous and having witnessed cultural-religious friction in the West decided not to subject itself to that experiment esp. given the precarious geopolitical place the country occupies; Poland diverts significant funds to efforts on Syrian soil to help Syrians on the ground; Poland is already in the Schengen zone and so what's this business with no aliens?

> perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society

The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment. That whole affair with the Tribunal (a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists, basically) is more complex. Every party had put its own candidates in and the previous ruling party, the Civic Platform, just before office, had exploited incoherent and unsatisfiable laws to create a situation that could only be resolved it seems the way it had been. Needless to say, it is far more complex than the way you claim it is. There is a general problem with Polish laws looking like Swiss cheese and issues with the Polish constitution. And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes?

> They gave everyone with more than one child free money.

Not everyone agrees with that policy, but what is so wrong with it that you had to mention it as if it were an evil thing? The goal is to help slow or counteract the negative birth rate of the country. Europe in general is facing serious demographic issues. "Importing" large numbers of people from totally different cultures is not a great solution (see Germany, France).

> They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'.

No, they don't. And when they do, so what? That's how state-owned institutions and programs are often labelled in Poland and elsewhere outside the US. The National Theatre, the Polish National Opera, the National Institute of Remembrance. What a silly grievance.

> They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.)

They don't have issues with the European Union as such. They have issues with some ways the EU operates today and the way it relates to the countries of the former Eastern bloc. And who do you think makes up a good chunk of "Poland's owners" in this article? Hint: they're on the other side of "the river" and they own 80% of the Polish media. The current party, if you'll recall, signed the Lisbon Treaty in 2007. And w.r.t., Putin, Poland, and this party, are more keenly aware of the threat Putin poses than anyone, hence being one of very few countries actually meeting NATO defense quotas, hence trying to increase NATO presence in the region, hence pushing for the Three Seas Initiative with American support, hence previous attempts at installing a missile shield. The EU has done little to counter Putin. The West shows little solidarity with the countries most threatened by Putin. For example, Germany continues to carry on with its backroom deals and gas pipelines circumventing Poland, even though it would be cheaper to run the pipeline through Poland instead of through the Baltic.

So, I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by seba_dos1 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:44PM (#16643605)
As somebody who followed closely some of the issues mentioned here, especially the Tribunal one, seeing the legislative procedures being fearlessly broken and actually listening to the parliamentary debates, being able to pin-point the carefully crafted manipulative messages that weren't even internally coherent as soon as you gave them more attention than usual media coverage does, I can see you mindlessly repeating all this stuff right now. Try to diversify your opinion, read various sources, and especially don't buy into the completely stupid "they tried to do bad stuff and failed, so we'll now successfully do twice as bad stuff as they wanted to, cause we're in power now and nobody will stop us and hey, they were baddies too" argument.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by ergo14 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:49AM (#16646909)
> a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists

"W okresie PRL ustanowienie sądu konstytucyjnego stało się postulatem formułowanym przez wiele środowisk w okresie przełomu politycznego lat 1980–1981[2]. Powołania TK domagała się m.in. adwokatura oraz Niezależny Samorządny Związek Zawodowy „Solidarność”. "

Yes, someone does not have the idea what they are talking about, the Tribunal was established because Solidarity movement wanted it. A lot of the information you posted is at least inaccurate to high degree and can be verified easily.

> The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment.

Can you name at least a few high profile members of judicary that would fit this description? I can name a few in PIS Kryże, Piotrowicz (you know the communist era prosecutor that now reforms law in Poland... oh the irony) - even people like Cenckiewicz the historian clearly state that they should not be there.

> And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes.

I agree, can you point me to the parts of the laws that will improve the system for the citizens instead of currently ruling party?

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by bobthechef on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:31PM (#16642613)
One of the sources Morawiecki draws from is Catholic social teaching, which, as can be expected, is not particularly friendly toward morally bankrupt, exploitative, and unrestrained incarnations of capitalism. So, really, opposition to that variety of destructive capitalism is not a left/right wing issue as it is erroneously often thought of in the United States. (The Church is also opposed to socialism as an inherently perverse model, but it is not categorically opposed to some government social programs, though I would suspect they are viewed as less than idea, preferring saner business practices and charity).
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by classicsnoot on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:08PM (#16644480)
I would honestly like to know how clarifying the historical accuracy of claims is somehow denying the Holocaust. Your comment has been flagged so it is obvious the Cowards of Dang's Round Table have decided your invective inspired to much vitriol for their liking, but I think your self imposed mental illness should be given over to the light, not pushed into the shadows to fester in the minds of the inadvertently as well as willfully ignorant.

Polish history is fraught with calumny and misunderstanding. Sometimes they are apathetic, anti-Semitic fools, other times they are reasonable and intelligent hosts of a hard pressed diaspora population. None of this has any bearing on the fact that the Poles are in a three-way tie for most fcked up by WWII. IMO they were hurt the most. On top of the travails of WWII they were then thrust into the Soviet sphere. I know this will seem like a reprehensible statement, but if you want to learn about a group fuked by their neighbors and shunned by the world with their history erased and their culture besmirched internationally, it is the the children of Rejtan, not Judah. Consider that both groups lost roughly the same numbers (gross total) but one group gained a Homeland as well as an upward trajectory that apparently has no ceiling while the other was doomed to the orbit of the worst political and social experiment in recorded history.

So, I say to you: before you vomit up some BS you acquired on r/postcapitalism look into the deep history of a person, place, or people when they seem to act atypically or illogically. Sometimes the history can illuminate.

If you think my remonstration is misplaced or my recounting of history sloppy or inaccurate, I'd love to carry on a deeper conversation.

... assuming I'm not shadow banned for thoughtcrimes ;)

Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by beedogs on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:07PM (#16644945)
Their government is still lunatic-right, regardless of how many hairs you feel like splitting about some of their policies.
Re:Poland's economic experiment based on Thomas Piketty by classicsnoot on Saturday March 24, 2018 @12:29AM (#16664880)
I only wrote about their history in regards to why they would like for the world to stop acting like they were complicit in the Jewish Holocaust. Does it ever get tiring calling your opponents some flavor of crazy, only to watch them sweep you out of power even as you eat your own in a reckless purity spiral? Thanks for Trump, BTW. We never would have been blessed by him if you fellas didn't exist.