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Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by mcguire on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:40PM (#16630757)
Back in about 1988, Bruce Porter, one of my AI professors, described the problem statement of the Fifth Generation project as, "a list of important research topics like natural language understanding, speech recognition, and so forth, and the statement, 'Therefore we will build a parallel Prolog machine.'" He wasn't a fan.

On the other hand, according to the tech press at the time, the Japanese were going to eat our lunch. Put us all out of work. Rule the world with an iron fist.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by segmondy on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:45PM (#16630812)
A Parallel prolog machine is a great idea. Just because it failed to take off doesn't mean the idea shouldn't be explored again. The difference in CPU design in 88 and today is amazing. Prolog is one of those languages that just automatically lends itself well to AND/OR conditions without having to change any code.

I personally still see a future there, Von Neumaan has only taken us so far. We need alternate CPU designs.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by PaulHoule on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @02:21PM (#16631134)
The 5th generation project found that Prolog isn't very parallelizable and thus they created a language called KL1 which was more parallelizable than Prolog but not as good in other ways.
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by wrp on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:45PM (#16633010)
There were a few nearly identical parallelizations of Prolog. Besides KL1, there were Concurrent Prolog, GHC, Paralog, Strand, and Aldwych. The structure of Prolog-like concurrent systems is like the Actor model, based on message passing, and shares the problem of indeterminacy in the ordering of messages. These systems had to drop backtracking, because that requires access to a global stack.

In the end, it proved difficult to implement clause invocation in these languages as efficiently as procedure invocation in object-oriented programming languages. The combination of efficient inheritance-based procedure invocation together with class libraries and browsers was better than the slower pattern-directed clause invocation of the FGCS programming languages, so concurrent object-oriented message-passing languages like Java and C# became the mainstream.

I would suggest that the relational database approach is simpler and about as powerful as the rule-based approach to knowledge processing. From a practical point of view, any row of a Relatonal DataBase System table can be considered as a rule, provided that at least one attribute has been selected as an output.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by tlb on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:59PM (#16630938)
I agree, along with a huge range of parallel machines.

Parallel machines weren't a great idea in the early 90s, because you could barely get one decent CPU on a chip and adding memory turned it into a large board per core. Now you can have satisfying numbers of CPUs plus memory on a single chip, and even a useful prototype on an FPGA.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:54PM (#16630898)
> On the other hand, according to the tech press at the time, the Japanese were going to eat our lunch. Put us all out of work. Rule the world with an iron fist.

Sound familiar? Thankfully history doesn’t repeat itself with another Asian country going all in on AI with a scary huge real estate bubble.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by jonathanyc on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @02:53PM (#16631441)
Drawing trite parallels is very ha-ha, but we have to remember that while Japan only has half the population of the US, China’s population is much more. It’s a little suspicious arguing that one Japanese person is somehow destined to be more productive and inventive than two American people; it is even more suspicious arguing the same for one American and five Chinese.
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @03:19PM (#16631677)
The parallels are downright freaky. Think about it:

* Sense that they will rule the world

* Incredibly bubbly real estate market

* Exporting this bubble to North America west coast

* Huge bets on AI

* Zombie companies (SOEs)

* Rapidly aging worforce

Yes, there are some difference, China is much larger than Japan but it is also much poorer than Japan (on a per capita basis). The country as a whole isn't that well educated (compulsory education only goes to 9th grade, extremely uneven resources applied to rural areas and different cities).

Who knows how this will play off, I'm guessing a China crash will be much worse in scale than Japan coming down in the late 80s/early 90s, but China will also be able to recover much more quickly after it happens given there is still room for development.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by mieseratte on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @03:21PM (#16631695)
> one American and five Chinese

How many Chinese are meaningfully in the present? As I understood it, there was still a non-trivial population living in a less-than-modern way.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by vpribish on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @04:20PM (#16632183)
interesting question! and how many in the US are in the present? and just _when_ in the world is silicon valley - or tokyo?
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by mieseratte on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @06:52PM (#16633544)
I mean, straight up subsistence farming populations. Not "building Facebook for cats."
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by dcldcl on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @08:21PM (#16634117)
While I don't have solid economic numbers (good luck with that in China), if I had a to guess it would make that ratio still one American to two Chinese.

Here's a model that I'll use to back up that idea:

Top 5 US CSAs: NY, LA, Chicago, DC, SF Bay Area: 70.8 million people.

Top 5 Chinese Metro Areas: Guangzhou, Shanghai, Chongqing, Beijing, Hangzhou: 149 million.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @08:56PM (#16634318)
Are you including the rural populations of each city? Chongqing, for example, is actually fairly rural, it’s basically what we would call a state.

Chinese municipalities are complicated. Even Beijing is about half rural.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by dcldcl on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:45AM (#16638415)
Oh yeah I'm not saying the model is great, but if someone wants to discount the 1 to 4.3 ratio, that's the estimate I'd throw out there.

And if we take in the half rural estimate, that'd already put it at 1 to 1 today (with lots of room for growth).

Agreed that Chongqing is fairly different (since it's forced "urbanization" due to the Three Gorges Dam). But I've heard a lot of people say Beijing and Shanghai make NYC look "small" in comparison.

Even LA and NY have lots of parts that many Americans may not consider as living "meaningfully in the present" from the point of view being able to work on advanced projects like "Fifth Generation" computing.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by mieseratte on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:08AM (#16655751)
> Even LA and NY have lots of parts that many Americans may not consider as living "meaningfully in the present" from the point of view being able to work on advanced projects like "Fifth Generation" computing.

I could have put it clearer, but my understanding was that China still has a non-trivial population that is not involved in the "advanced economy," in a way that would surprise most Americans. That is, subsistence farming, less-than high school education, etc.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by maxxxxx on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @03:32PM (#16631779)
It could also go the other way. There is no way to know it. If you can learn one thing from history it's that empires never last as dominant as they may seem at the time.
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by 2sk21 on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @10:27PM (#16634799)
I confess that I too fell for the 5th gen hype and spent a couple years diving deep into Prolog in the mid 80s. It wasn't a total waste however, I still find my knowledge of Prolog coming in handy. Logic programming is an interesting concept, but not in the way they envisaged it in the 80s. In particular, I am fascinated by answer set programming. There is no need to shoe-hard Turing completeness into logic programming.
Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by YeGoblynQueenne on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @02:15PM (#16631085)
>> He wasn't a fan.

Given the historical circumstances, I'll be he would prefer they were trying to build a parallel Lisp machine.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by mcguire on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:47PM (#16640589)
If I remember correctly, we did have a lab full of TI Lisp machines at the time. Never used them myself, though.

The interesting point, though, was that the specific goals were not clearly related to the fundamental reasons for doing it. And as it turned out, most of the research topics (but not all, IIRC) were really boosted by work in graphics co-processors.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:56AM (#16647226)
My understanding was that, at the time, Lisp and Prolog were the two "languages of AI", with Lisp favoured in the US and Prolog in Europe and Japan. Knowing how language arguments go, I assume that an AI professor who didn't like the idea the Japanese were going for Prolog would be naturally preferring Lisp. I might be wrong :)

As to the 5th generation computer project, what little I've read so far has more or less convinced me that special-purpose processors will never be better than general-purpose ones, at least not for general-purpose computing (which, ultimately, was the aim of the project).

I'm saying that as a dyed-in-the-wool symbolist btw (and a long-time Prolog user). Special-purpose processors to make my Prolog go faster is something I'd love to get my hands on- but, for most people? I think it's not even number 1000 in their list of priorities ot improve computing performance.

Re:'Fifth Generation' Became Japan's Lost Generation (1992) by lispm on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:54AM (#16648631)
Basically most AI/Lisp vendors also offered a Prolog in Lisp. As a Prolog implementation the standalone Prolog compilers were faster and had more Prolog features, but since the Lisp tools were a bit more mature, even in Japan some projects used Prolog in Lisp.

There was a lot of research for AI hardware in the 80s and also for Prolog hardware. I once saw a Japanese Prolog Machine (a special purpose workstation with a Prolog environment), but I didn't have the chance to actually use it.

With faster/cheaper Intel or RISC processors and a lack of research funding, the topic of specialized hardware was mostly ending in the early 90s.