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Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by mozumder on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:13AM (#16616300)
lol these things aren't going to be priced per LED. Just like you don't pay per transistor when you buy a chip, you're not going to pay per diode when you buy a microLED display.

The costs scale with device area, not device count. This is because these devices are made with lithography on a wafer. A single silicon wafer would produce 5000 diodes, or it may produce 5,000,000, depending on how small you make each one.

Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by nrp on Monday March 19, 2018 @07:34AM (#16617640)
It depends on whether the display is assembled with a monolithic microLED wafer or a microLED transfer process. I believe Luxvue which Apple acquired was focused on the latter. Transfer cost and rework cost do scale per LED. Additionally, defect rate most likely does scale per LED to some extent in addition to per area.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by mozumder on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:06PM (#16620203)
There are probably manufacturing processes where LED transfer costs don't scale per LED. For example, they could use some type of expanding substrate material as part of their transfer process.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by robotresearcher on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:57AM (#16616410)
The cost of the equipment to produce the wafers grows with the density as well as the area.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by amelius on Monday March 19, 2018 @05:37AM (#16617130)
Yeah, but it can be reused. We're talking about large scale fabrication here.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by robotresearcher on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:46AM (#16626291)
Oh shit, I've been doing it wrong. It's been really expensive.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by xt00 on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:23AM (#16616322)
Of course, so let’s assume a 5” display, and assume that the fill factor per LED color is 25% (rather than expected 33%) then 25% of the area of a 5” display would be required to populate one color. So assuming a small dicing kerf let’s assume for a 12 inch wafer you get 8 displays from that for one color. Which feels pretty generous, normally that same vendor would have yielded millions of LEDs from that same wafer and they made say 10000 per wafer, then if you asked them to sell for far less than that, what is their incentive? If they did that they would essentially be crashing the entire LED market in one fell swoop and their own profits. So the die area argument makes sense from apples perspective but doesn’t from the entrenched LED makers perspective. So seems like apple essentially would need to own the actual LED fab as well.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by derefr on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:31AM (#16616342)
> If they did that they would essentially be crashing the entire LED market in one fell swoop

Would they? A one-subpixel microLED isn't going to be able to be used as a regular LED. It's not large or bright enough.

Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by xt00 on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:54AM (#16616402)
interesting point but for a given luminance in nits the area doesn’t matter since it is cd / m^2 so assuming that there is a “cheap variety” of LED wafer material that outputs say 2000 nits for a low current, then a small area — say 20x20um for the subpixel size would save some cost for sure. I would estimate about the area of the subpixel would be about 30 times smaller than most indicator type low cost LEDs — which are in the sub 1mm^2 area range. So we can find the 30X factor but still need around 300X cost reduction still to get a 10000X reduction in price. Ultimately the Display should be around $100 or less, so if you can buy an entire wafer for $800 or so then you have something, but as far as I know most 12 in wafers with zero processing done to them are more like 1k. Then put them thru a fab and add value and run the fab and the cost goes up a ton. And we need 3 different wafers.. so anyway, I’m worried cost is just going to really hurt this approach for a long time.
Re:Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time by derefr on Monday March 19, 2018 @02:17AM (#16616457)
> the area doesn’t matter

Producing the same luminance using a smaller LED is equivalent to running the same current through a thinner wire. At some point you're just going to be burning out the LEDs instead of powering them.

Given that you respond to that problem by lowering the current to within the smaller LEDs' reduced tolerance, then you get something too dim to use as an indicator LED.