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Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by qalmakka on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @04:18AM (#16583159)
"Just over two years ago, we released Raspberry Pi 3 Model B. This was our first 64-bit product"

Very unfortunate that their in-house developed and promoted OS ("Raspbian") only supports armv7, thus leaving the vast majority that doesn't know about the existence of (or how to use) archlinux ARM an the likes with a 32 bit os. Am I the only one that doesn't get the sense out of this here? Debian supports Aarch64 out of the box I think.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by jimmies on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @04:25AM (#16583185)
To me, that makes a lot of sense. Having only one architecture to support and one image to rule them all across the product line is quite a great thing to have.

The other day, there was a person who had a "reddit gold" bounty for the first person who can help them get the Pi 0 online. The person basically couldn't get the Pi Zero on the wireless network. They had no USB-OTG adapter or mini HDMI adapter they could use to debug the Pi Zero. I was thinking something along the line of making the Pi USB port a USB-serial gadget, but it was still cumbersome. The "accepted solution" was to pull out the SD card for the Zero, put it into a Pi3B they had, get the 3B online, and put it back to the Zero. I think that was such a brilliant idea.

Making it easy for users to achieve such tasks is often overlooked by us who "know too much" to not care about the efficiency of the new hardware. I don't think it was an accident that the Pi is so ubiquitous in education: They made a lot of right decisions to make their product easy to use.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by moftz on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @09:49AM (#16584693)
It would be even easier and less vague to just pop out the SD card, open up /etc/network/interfaces, and edit that to add your network. Pop it back in and go. This is what I've done when setting up a new raspberry pi image without having any peripherals attached to it. I ssh in, configure the system to my liking, then make an image of the SD card for future use. I could even turn this work into a script that downloads new raspbian images, edits them for my purposes, then packs them up to be used later.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by jimmies on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:09AM (#16584824)
That's what the person did -- they put wpa_supplicant.conf to the boot partition -- but somehow the Pi wouldn't connect, and they had no way to debug it to figure out what went wrong.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by safepants on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @12:09PM (#16585777)
i had this situation before but i realized i missed a critical step: adding wpa_supplicant.conf BEFORE first boot of the pi0w. Not saying it's the same issue, but i was scratching my head for a while there.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by cr0sh on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @01:16PM (#16586415)
I'd love to give reddit gold (if I had any) to anyone who could point me to a source for the Pi Zero at the price point it was originally supposed to be selling at: $5.00

I have yet to find it - you can get them cheap, but no where near what the RPi Foundation advertised them at when they first were announced/launched.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by dtparr on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @01:42PM (#16586681)
It depends where you are. Microcenters generally have them for $5 ($10 for the 'W'), although for Pi Day they're both on sale for $3.14. Sadly, there aren't any near me, but I had a relative who is near them pick up a literal handful last time they came down.

Several online places have them for $5, but shipping 'kills the deal' as they say.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by antongribok on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @04:30PM (#16588030)
MicroCenter is where I buy them. I happen to have one close by.

They also sell the normal RPi3 for $29.99 instead of $35.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by morganvachon on Thursday March 15, 2018 @06:42PM (#16597099)
I got my last two Pi Zero units from Vilros[1], they have the Zero W for $10 which is the intended price from the RPi Foundation. To me, it's worth the extra $5 for WiFi/BT with no dongles.

[1] https://www.vilros.com/shop/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-zero-w...

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by qalmakka on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @06:03AM (#16583541)
Yes, but then promoting the Raspberry Pi as "64 bit product" seems almost gimmicky to me. Ok, you switched to an AArch64 chip, but that was simply because it's what your supplier was producing at that time. It makes no sense to me to promote a feature you don't support or make use of, if not for simple and pure marketing reasons.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by yipbub on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @07:00AM (#16583778)
That there are other OSes that do support it mean that it is a feature.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by izacus on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:03AM (#16584785)
Which OSes are that? I couldn't find a single one.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by ac29 on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @12:49PM (#16586116)
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @03:33PM (#16587602)
There's also Pi64[1] which I have used and liked.

1: https://github.com/bamarni/pi64

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by floatboth on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @12:55PM (#16586193)
FreeBSD/arm64 works great on RPi3
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by candiodari on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:16AM (#16598587)
Reminds me of the 386 when 8M ram was quite a lot. 4 Gigs address space ! Few people even had hard drives that held 4 gigs.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by lloeki on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @04:38AM (#16583226)
The problem is VideoCore, as the Broadcom firmware and closed libraries are 32bit only.

You can very easily† pop in an ArchLinux ARM AArch64[0] in there and notice that you only get a very basic framebuffer, sound is just not working at all, and the bootloader is quite incomplete. So ARMv7 it is for me, even with ArchLinux ARM and in spite of my wish for better FOSS support from Broadcom or in Linux mainline.

† I find alarm much much better as a distro than raspbian as it's incredibly straightforward to install, maintain, and use, while vanilla debian is downright painful.

[0]: https://archlinuxarm.org/platforms/armv8/broadcom/raspberry-...

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by qalmakka on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @06:08AM (#16583561)
Man, I hate how ARM OEMs are screwing up the whole platform as a viable PC-replacement platform, and I really wish they would reconsider some of the money-grubbing choices they made. Having a standardised platform such as the x86(-64) PC platform is fantastic for tinkering and long term support and reusability of your machines; things such as binary only drivers with just 2 year support (coff coff Qualcomm) are an absolute shame.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by imtringued on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @07:33AM (#16583948)
There is also the fact that UEFI is rather suboptimal. They are adopting UEFI on the server chips because they've failed to develop a new standard. They've missed a chance to improve upon UEFI. Now they are stuck inheriting UEFI's problems because otherwise there would be no standard at all.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by bnolsen on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:09AM (#16584826)
ugh thats bad news. i can't stand uefi its more a hindrance than help.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by SmellyGeekBoy on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @08:28AM (#16584261)
To be fair, drivers for most x86-compatible hardware are binary-only. Not that I agree with the practice, but there is precedent.
Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by slrz on Thursday March 15, 2018 @04:11AM (#16591137)
I haven't seen an off-the-shelf x86 machine that actually requires binary-only drivers for essential functionality in a very long time. Sure, there is lots of specialized hardware that no one wrote an open source driver for but you don't buy those from Dell or HP.

Most x86 boxen tend to run tons of proprietary firmware but at least that isn't pinning me down on ancient hacked-up kernel trees.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by floatboth on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @12:47PM (#16586090)
> only get a very basic framebuffer

You get 3D accelerated Wayland or Xorg with the open source VC4 driver!

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by vardump on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:15AM (#16584873)
> Broadcom firmware and ... are 32bit only

Doesn't the firmware run on VideoCore anyways, so why would its bitness matter?

Closed ARM-side libraries are of course a different beast.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by bunderbunder on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @09:44AM (#16584659)
I'm really pretty OK with it. The thing only has 1GB of RAM, so there's not a whole lot of value in having a >4GB address space. Might as well default to having the perf boost and reduction in memory consumption that comes with pointers that are half as big.

People who actually have a use for 64bit on their pis will generally know what to do, and I'm guessing most of of them won't have a whole lot of use for the streamlined UX that is Raspbian's raison d'etre, anyway.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by vardump on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:11AM (#16584839)
> so there's not a whole lot of value in having a >4GB address space.

Don't most ARMv7 CPUs (like A7, A15, etc.) have 1 TB address space? On LPAE ARM, 64-bit arch will only get you larger virtual address space, but you get same 40-bit address space in both cases.

> reduction in memory consumption that comes with pointers that are half as big

Nothing prevents you from running 32-bit binaries on 64-bit OS, as long as you have 4kB page size.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by bunderbunder on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:26AM (#16584949)
What use to I have for being able to address a hypothetical 1TB of memory on a computer that's got a fixed 1GB of memory soldered to the board?

I can see having a bit of headroom for virtual memory, but I wouldn't want to actually use it. The non-volatile storage on this computer is an SD card, so paging will be particularly expensive. Are you really going to have more than 3GB of swap? That's a pretty big appetite for thrashing.

Regarding running 32-bit binaries on 64-bit OS, sure, and the code that lives in those binaries will run faster. But you'll still be needlessly taking a hit on the 64-bit kernel and userland.

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by vardump on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @11:06AM (#16585220)
My implicit point was that addressable memory size is not a factor when choosing between 32 and 64-bit ARM.

Looks like I should have communicated it more clearly.

AArch64 does have some perks, but mostly for out-of-order cores, which RPI3's Cortex A53 is not.

That said, even A53 can benefit from 31 registers in 64-bit mode. Large virtual address space is nice not only for memory mapping files, but to do lazy initialization while keeping high performance direct pointer access characteristics. That way you can have the MMU doing the check and indirection for you instead of slow explicit conditional check in code.

You can mitigate pointer size by ensuring memory accesses are PC-relative. Perhaps there could be support for something similar to x32 ABI [0] as well.

AArch64 codegen does need to generate more conditional jumps or CSELs (like cmove) though. Also function entry & exit code is larger due to lack of LDM & STM (load/store multiple). But on the other hand, stack spills are rarer, thanks to 31 general purpose registers instead of 14 on 32-bit ARM.

Where AArch64 truly shines is when you have a real out-of-order CPU core, for example Cortex A72. There are significantly more opportunities for instruction level parallelism due to dropping instruction predicates and other changes.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI

Re:New Raspberry Pi Model B+ by l1k on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:41AM (#16585046)
It's worse, Raspbian is compiled for armv6 to also support the BCM2835 (Raspberry Pi 1). Here's a performance comparison between a modern 64-bit armv8 Linux on a Le Potato SBC versus armv6 Raspbian on the Raspberry Pi 3:

https://libre.computer/2017/12/03/performance-and-power-cons...