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Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by adrianN on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:29AM (#16566960)
It is strange that anti-inflammatory drugs don't reduce risk.

Which fats are pro- or anti-inflammatory also seems to be an area of active research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4424767/

Nutrition is pretty terrible. It seems to me that laymen have zero chance of getting useful advice out of the research, other than "Eat a varied diet, move regularly".

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by donquichotte on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:47AM (#16567018)
> Nutrition is pretty terrible. It seems to me that laymen have zero chance of getting useful advice out of the research, other than "Eat a varied diet, move regularly".

I completely agree, and it also appears to change every other decade.

Suddenly, drinking coffee became healthy, eggs stopped being unhealthy and drinking a glass of wine a day became a major risk for CVD.

Engineers are spoiled when it comes disentangeling relationships between causes and effects because our systems are relatively simple compared to the huge and complicated mess that is human (or, indeed, any) biology.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by pngai on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:33PM (#16569284)
I wonder if there are categories of people that respond in similar ways when they are in the same category, but the response would vary from one category to another. For example, people with low blood pressure would not benefit from a low sodium diet. Yet we are all told "reduce your salt intake".
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by chillingeffect on Monday March 12, 2018 @01:12PM (#16569609)
Those are nits compared to the vast amount of nutrition advice which has remained stable.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by rsync on Monday March 12, 2018 @11:38AM (#16568844)
"It is strange that anti-inflammatory drugs don't reduce risk."

Luckily, fasting does. Whatever your metabolic and inflammation markers are, they will all trend worse after energy input.

If your waking day is 16 hours long, reducing your "feeding window" by even four hours increases your time spent in "low inflammation mode" by 50%.

Looking for a drug or a novel intervention is silly when you haven't picked even the lowest hanging fruit. It's like installing a fancy air filter in your car but neglecting to even change the oil.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by billmalarky on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:20PM (#16569177)
Additional low-hanging fruit is Omega-3 supplementation. For those interested cntl-f my username and see my other comment on this page.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by danieltillett on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:33AM (#16566971)
There is actually some suggestion that the way the statins work is as anti-inflammatories [0]. Of course there is the wonder drug aspirin as well.

0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3394171/

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Gibbon1 on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:10AM (#16567114)
I think there is a drug on the market that was approved because it lowered cholesterol the same amount as statins. But when studied on how well it reduced heart attacks was shown to be worthless.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by danieltillett on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:19AM (#16567146)
Yes there have been a few of these that have fallen over in large scale phase III trials where they reduced cholesterol, but didn’t reduce the death rate. Shows how little we understand even some of the most studied pharmaceuticals and disease areas.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by lawlessone on Monday March 12, 2018 @01:30PM (#16569743)
>wonder drug aspirin as

unfortunately if you're asthmatic there is a decent chance you are allergic to aspirin

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by truculation on Monday March 12, 2018 @10:24AM (#16568290)
My guess is that we're simply overstimulating ourselves -- with food, caffeine, alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. In part to support our increased mental activity (work, video games, social media, etc). This would explain weight gain, increased inflammation and tendency to form clots (sympathetic nervous system arousal increases blood clotting, presumably for 'fight or flight' purposes). Hence the benefits of periodic fasting, observing the Sabbath, etc, -- to truly relax and allow the parasympathetic nervous system to kick back in. Hitherto our ideas of what is relaxing have been faulty e.g. watching TV
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cageface on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:53AM (#16567041)
There are billion dollar industries out there doing their best to confuse you about this. Established wisdom out there hasn't really changed that much in the last few decades. Avoid processed sugars and oils and eat mostly (or entirely) plants.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Valmar on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:25AM (#16567164)
> Established wisdom

> eat mostly (or entirely) plants

So, Veganism is "established wisdom". More like unproven dogma...

A paleo diet is far more supportive of overall health. What that looks like for the individual is really down to them discovering what their body prefers, in terms of nutrients, carbs, fats and protein.

A paleo diet can be mostly veges, mostly meat, and anywhere in between.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by astura on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:37AM (#16567471)
Wow... Someone dismisses veganism as "unproven dogma" then promotes in it's place, of all things, the "Paleo diet" without a shread of irony.

"Paleo diet," as a concept, is uh... not based in reality. I honestly don't mean to be mean when I say that, there just isn't any other way to put it.

First, to recreate a "Paleolithic diet" we'd have to know exactly what Paleolithic humans ate, in which proportions, and we really don't. The evidence we have is incomplete. It's extremely doubtful humans in different groups in different geographic locations all ate the same thing - it's more likely humans adapted to their environment as that is exactly what humans tend to do.

It's not possible to eat a Paleo diet today, as the plants and animals that existed in paleolithic times no longer exist today. Natural and artificial selection has changed our food supply so drastically that the foods available today are almost completely unrecognizable compared to their Paleolithic ancestors.

(Ignoring for a second that humans have evolved since Paleolithic times as well. Also ignoring for a second the diseases of aging might not have appeared much in Paleolithic humans, to our knowledge, because there wasn't a whole lot of aging going on during that time...)

If you feel better following a fad diet, that's perfectly fine, just don't pretend it's any less "unproven dogma" than any other diet. The "Paleo diet" is based on a bad understanding of science, history, and anthropology.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Valmar on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:41AM (#16567484)
> It's not possible to eat a Paleo diet today, as the plants and animals that existed in paleolithic times no longer exist today. Natural and artificial selection has changed our food supply so drastically that the foods available today are almost completely unrecognizable compared to their Paleolithic ancestors.

A modern day Paleo diet is merely about eating as closely to natural foods as possible, eating those foods optimal for our individual health, and cutting out all processed junk foods.

Simple. It is certainly based in reality, much more so than the dogma of Veganism.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by adrianN on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:58AM (#16567563)
But how do you know which foods are optimal for our individual health? Finding that out is the whole point of nutrition science!
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Valmar on Monday March 12, 2018 @03:40PM (#16570794)
I was deliberately vague, because this is an individual thing. I was never dismissing nutrition science...

I swear some people just downvote without even trying to understand what I'm trying to convey... then again, maybe I could have explained a little better.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by astura on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @04:03PM (#16579274)
Words have meaning, "Paleo diet" doesn't mean "whatever is healthy or 'natural.'"
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cageface on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:45AM (#16567240)
A true paleo diet is mostly plant based anyway. Paleo man just didn't have access to three giant portions of meat a day. Only modern industrial agriculture has made that possible.

The modern "paleo" diet loaded with animal fat and protein is a modern invention that serves mostly to help people rationalize their taste preferences.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by koboll on Monday March 12, 2018 @09:21AM (#16567938)
>Paleo man just didn't have access to three giant portions of meat a day.

Paleo man definitely had access to multiple giant portions of meat a day -- just not every day.

After you kill the auroch, all that meat has to go somewhere.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by logfromblammo on Monday March 12, 2018 @11:31AM (#16568786)
Or mammoth. Or whale.

Paleo man also ate the whole thing, not just the muscle meat. Some days, you might just have a giant bowlful of fat. Other days, you're eating paste made from acorns that have been leaching out their bitter compounds under a waterfall for a week.

Depending on where you lived, your tribe might have had access to many portions of meat every day for weeks, and then nothing but low-nutrition or semi-poisonous plants for months. It was a great incentive to develop either food preservation technology, agriculture, or a nomadic lifestyle. Which is to say: follow the meat, keep the meat from rotting until the herd passes through again, or eat more nutritious plants.

So there wasn't any one archetypal paleo diet. Paleo man had to adapt to his environment or die. The "paleo" idea is to reject foods that did not exist 10000 years ago, because supposedly human physiology hasn't evolved to deal with them yet. You invent a caricature of a cave man in your head and let him tell you what's food and what isn't.

~I don't recommend it. When I tried it, my cave man slipped on a wet rock while hunting, got a bad compound fracture, and died from an infection a week later, because antibiotics hadn't been discovered yet. My cave woman was out collecting sour berries and army worms, fell into a creek, and drowned. Then my cave baby was raised by wolves. I couldn't find the wolf milk and regurgitated caribou section in the supermarket, so I had to abandon the diet.~

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by RobertoG on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:03PM (#16569034)
>>"The modern "paleo" diet loaded with animal fat and protein is a modern invention that serves mostly to help people rationalize their taste preferences."

It's difficult to know what the diet in the Paleolithic was but there is, I think, a component of the diet that we can be pretty sure about: occasional hungry. How we use that knowledge it's a different issue.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Valmar on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:39AM (#16567474)
> A true paleo diet is mostly plant based anyway. Paleo man just didn't have access to three giant portions of meat a day. Only modern industrial agriculture has made that possible.

Not true ~ there is no "true" paleo diet ~ it varies vastly from culture to culture. Look at the Eskimos ~ their traditional diet was mostly animal, high in nutrients, protein, fat, and sugar in the form of glycogen, and very little in the way of plants. Then in other tribal cultures, they may subsist mostly on plant foods.

There's no One, True Diet. Veganism is actually rather unhealthy, because it excludes foods which contain highly bioavailable forms of nutrients not found in plant foods ~ Omega 3s, iron, etc.

An animal-based diet isn't unhealthy ~ it can be the most nutritious of all. Organ meats are extremely nutritious.

An animal-based diet isn't the problem ~ modern human societies run by greedy corporations and governments are, because they have created and supported the problems of animal abuse, because it is profitable.

> The modern "paleo" diet loaded with animal fat and protein is a modern invention that serves mostly to help people rationalize their taste preferences.

Bullshit. Paleo isn't all about fat and protein. That's keto. Paleo can be full of healthy carbs.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cageface on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:49AM (#16567515)
It's not possible to feed 8 billion people a diet rich in animal products without all the abuses and cruelties of modern animal agriculture. Those techniques weren't invented because people enjoy abusing animals. They were developed because environmentally sustainable and more humane methods simply can't scale to meet demand.

And the "paleo" diet most people eat is really just a rebranding of what people used to call the Atkins diet.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by rmrm on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:37PM (#16569323)
While this is often cited as being true, and I used to believe it myself, as I've investigated alternative forms of agriculture and animal husbandry - I've begun to feel less and less that this is true. There are integrated farms that are highly, highly productive.

I feel the root cause of much of these issues is the practice of corporate farms to wall things off into atomic monocultures, and to separate animal husbandry from farming. I believe this is easier, for many reasons, but not more productive. It may be more economical, based on externalized pollution costs, and subsidized energy costs. I.E it has more to do with our arrangement of politics, rather than underlying fundamentals.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by chillingeffect on Monday March 12, 2018 @01:20PM (#16569666)
>Veganism is actually rather unhealthy, because it excludes foods which contain highly bioavailable forms of nutrients not found in plant foods ~ Omega 3s, iron, etc.

All one has to do is lookup bioavailable sources of iron.

https://plenteousveg.com/iron-bioavailability/

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cies on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:27AM (#16567423)
Yups. True paleo looked a lot more like the WFPB diet what it now widely and scientifically proven to be the best for human health.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by pbhjpbhj on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:09AM (#16567109)
>Avoid processed sugars and oils and eat mostly (or entirely) plants. //

I'll bet if you look at foods in a supermarket the main changes in ingredients will be more processed sugars and oils. This seems to happen in the UK when companies are taken over by USAmerican companies.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cageface on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:18AM (#16567143)
Food has definitely gotten worse but the nutritional recommendations haven't really changed much.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cies on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:25AM (#16567416)
Is dairy still in? I think it used to be, but is on the way out in most places due to the mountain of evidence proving it makes us sick.

Processed meat is since a few years on the carcinogens lists (next to asbestos and smoking). But strange enough still on the hospital menus (also consumed by cancer patients)!

It takes a while I guess... Sadly.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by DanBC on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:29AM (#16567433)
> carcinogens lists (next to asbestos and smoking).

The quality of the evidence that processed red meat causes cancer is now as good as the evidence that smoking causes cancer.

The strength of the effect is very very different. Smoking causes a lot of cancer. Red meat causes very little cancer.

It's completely incorrect to suggest red meat is equivalent to smoking for cancer.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by LinuxBender on Monday March 12, 2018 @01:12PM (#16569610)
There may be some tiny amount of truth to this. Red meats contain more L-Glutamine which is required for muscle growth. It is the most abundant amino acid in our body. That said, taking more of it will also feed tumors by increasing the production of HGH. An extreme example of this is performance athletes that take human growth hormone. Those with tumors meet their demise rather quickly because their body did not have time to terminate the cells, or could not keep up with the growth rate. This is of course an extreme example. Red meats only contain enough L-Glutamine to increase your HGH on a much smaller scale.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cies on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:48AM (#16567513)
> It's completely incorrect to suggest red meat is equivalent to smoking for cancer.

Did I? Please read again. Just saying it's on the same list.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/kno...

> Red meat causes very little cancer.

Could you please quantify how little cancer? Prolly not. This is difficult stuff. We do not know dosages, etc.

BTW, I was talking about "processed meat" (like hotdogs, bacon and nuggets), you now talk about red meat. Red meat is not on the cancer list (yet).

If you down voted me, please reconsider. Because I'm right.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by Tharkun on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:25PM (#16569223)
You can pry my cheese from my cold, dead hands. Most hardish cheeses are low in lactose and high in all kinds of good stuff. And fat.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by wincy on Monday March 12, 2018 @02:14PM (#16570149)
Anecdotally, the best I’ve felt is eating only ribeyes and nothing else. 2 pounds for dinner and only water in the 23 hour interim. I’m apparently sensitive to a lot of vegetables that make me feel awful.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by cageface on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:11PM (#16571666)
You will eventually get scurvy if you don’t get any vitamin C in your diet. I also hate to think what a zero fiber diet will do to your intestines.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by redblacktree on Monday March 12, 2018 @03:17PM (#16570586)
As much as I love a ribeye and as amazing as that sounds, I bet it got pretty boring pretty quickly. Not to mention expensive.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by carbocation on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:35AM (#16567201)
Specific anti inflammatories actually do work: a landmark trial from last year showed that canakinumab (an IL1 antagonist) reduces recurrent adverse cardiac events.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28845751/

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by LinuxBender on Monday March 12, 2018 @01:15PM (#16569631)
Is there a natural form of that drug or has it been modified from its original form?
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by carbocation on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @01:35PM (#16577941)
This particular drug is a human monoclonal antibody, so it's different from many of the small molecule drugs that are derived from natural compounds.
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by alphaoverlord on Monday March 12, 2018 @12:01PM (#16569007)
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by mtgx on Monday March 12, 2018 @07:12AM (#16567354)
I read somewhere that anti-inflammatory drugs neutralize the effect of Vitamin K2 in the blood. So they treat the symptoms, like making your blood less thick or expanding your arteries, but during all that time your arteries still aren't healing and you keep accumulating LDL cholesterol and calcium. So in the long term, you're probably actually making things worse, because you're not allowing Vitamin K2 to act against the calcium in your blood.

You should be able to experiment with this by taking a CAC test every year or two.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by bluGill on Monday March 12, 2018 @10:52AM (#16568497)
The problem with nutrition is there are two types of valid studies. The first concludes "despite our best efforts we were unable to get the subjects to eat their assigned diet". The second doesn't apply to you because you are not confined (either to a hospital bed or in prison).

The above is overly cynical and not completely true, but it is a good guide to the types of science that can be done in nutrition.

Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by acct1771 on Monday March 12, 2018 @06:04AM (#16567089)
Prescription drugs? Or all drugs? e.g. CBD?
Re:Coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition by bitwize on Monday March 12, 2018 @10:23AM (#16568282)
Except we also know that you should be eating strict vegan, paleo, or keto, and for God's sake man, don't touch sugar or cow's milk.