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Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by Jedd on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:20AM (#16551212)
> De Beers is fighting Chinese lab-grown diamonds

And I hope they lose.

https://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bulls... (and HN comments on original posting 2013-03-19 -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 )

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by hyper_reality on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:26AM (#16551242)
I also highly recommend Edward Epstein's Atlantic article on this too: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-yo...

One of the best pieces of long-form journalism ever published, without a doubt.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by arikrak on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:58AM (#16551398)
The Priceonomics post didn't really say much more than the Atlantic article, I don't think it discussed synthetic diamonds or the internet or anything.

Cubic zirconia looks identical to diamonds but it's not chemically the same so people always considered it fake. Synthetic diamonds are chemically identical so De Beers need to invest millions in figuring out ways to distinguish them. Natural diamonds don't add anything more, but the whole purpose of them is that they're expensive.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by CydeWeys on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:34AM (#16551581)
Cubic zirconia is significantly different from diamond in hardness, optical dispersion, and density. Moissanite is a much closer match, but is more expensive to manufacture.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ce4 on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:59AM (#16551402)
And HN comments from five years ago on that The Atlantic article:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by jrs95 on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:58AM (#16551394)
Why was De Beers called “The Syndicate” in Israel? Was that where they had their supervillain lair or something? Almost all of the other names are trying too hard to be inconspicuous, and then they go with “The Syndicate”?
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by justherefortart on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:58PM (#16553975)
syn·di·cate noun noun: syndicate; plural noun: syndicates ˈsindikət/

    1.    a group of individuals or organizations combined to promote some common interest.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by jrs95 on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:04PM (#16554020)
Of course the literal meaning of it isn't bad, but the connotation is pretty negative. Although perhaps it isn't there, it could just be the English translation that "sounds" that way.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by justherefortart on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:18PM (#16554140)
Yeah, it's been used for "crime syndicate" for a while.

But we call them organized crime. So shouldn't calling something an organized <blank> be negative as well?

My goal for my Syndicate is like the old video game. Good times!

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by vanderZwan on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:54AM (#16551371)
If you ever want a proof that the market can be utterly irrational, look no further than:

> The arrival of lab-grown diamonds has challenged the widely-held assumption that diamond prices could only go up

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by kalcode on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:07AM (#16551795)
Feel like diamonds are such a great example for the 'a free-market' people. They typically argue that in a truly free-market everything is better.

Well diamond trade exists largely in a free market until it hits some of the countries they sell in but before that we basically have blood being spilt over them and companies existing outside of strong regulated countries to funnel the diamonds into and control the price.

A truly free-market seems very scary in a modern world.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by aeorgnoieang on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:59AM (#16552139)
Typically 'free markets', at least among sincere proponents of them, don't include "blood being spilt"; that's what makes things un-free.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by kenning on Friday March 09, 2018 @11:47AM (#16552963)
Here the guy you're replying to is talking about U.S. Libertarian ideology, which wouldn't care about foreign conflict of any type.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by aeorgnoieang on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:42PM (#16554838)
It's not true that U.S. libertarians don't "care about foreign conflict of any type".
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by swebs on Friday March 09, 2018 @10:38AM (#16552441)
I hate comments like these. You could have used this as an argument against the free market in general, but instead you tried to turn it into some us-vs-them tribalistic debate punctuated with an appeal to emotion. It's the lowest form of dialog crafted only to rowdy up people, split them into two extremes, and pit them against each other.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by kalcode on Monday March 12, 2018 @02:37PM (#16570302)
Free market as an economic model really isn't considered acceptable in a laissez-faire approach. So I would have attacked 'free market' and people respond with 'economist don't actually believe a true free-market would work well in today modern world.'

Instead I attack the ones that are actually driving to make policies that reflect a 'free-market', deregulate and push the ideology. Those are the ones pushing for an unreasonable policies.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ameister14 on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:16AM (#16551851)
A truly free market requires complete transparency, something the diamond market has historically lacked.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by vanderZwan on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:52AM (#16552084)
Yes, but a lot of free market proponents seem to ignore that transparency in markets doesn't just happen. There is no "invisible hand" guiding that.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ancap on Friday March 09, 2018 @10:32AM (#16552388)
I disagree. I think in a lot of cases buyers should or would demand transparency (ie. has this house ever been flooded?), but I don't think it's a strict requirement in the broad sense you may be implying.

Transparency can be subjective. For example, a person sells 100 shares of ACME stock to a savvy buyer. A short time later the stock triples in value, and the seller sues the buyer because they were not "completely transparent" about their knowledge that the stock would rise.

Of course, in all of this I am not talking about deliberate fraud which would be strictly forbidden in a free market.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ameister14 on Friday March 09, 2018 @11:41AM (#16552924)
I was talking about market transparency; it's more like the person selling the shares sells them to one person at a discount and another person at a high price. For a free market to function, the buyer would need to know the other prices people have paid for the same goods.

If you don't have that, a free market can't work well.

When you buy something in a free market, you should know its quality, characteristics and the price on the market. You should also know its provenance, relative supply and transport/marketing cost. That's transparency. It lets you buy things and make the most efficient choices, which is why it's fundamental for a free market.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ancap on Friday March 09, 2018 @12:48PM (#16553452)
>...That's transparency

The criteria you specify for transparency is subjective and I don't agree that all of those criteria are strictly necessary. Specifically, I don't agree that knowledge of "provenance, relative supply and transport/marketing cost" is required of a buyer at all in a free market, though they may personally have an interest in those things. I would venture that most consumers know and care very little about those things.

>If you don't have that, a free market can't work well.

>which is why it's fundamental for a free market

What's important is the principle of subjective value--that the buyer and the seller value what they are getting more than what they are giving up--and that can happen without the various criteria of transparency you outline. Certainly there are cases where market actors will demand some of those (and many cases they will not), but I wouldn't state it's a foundational requirement the market must be built upon.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ameister14 on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:47PM (#16554387)
We don't currently have a free market, and most customers definitely do not know the provenance, relative supply or transport/marketing cost of almost anything they buy. They trust food, for example, because the government secures it and regulates it.

>What's important is the principle of subjective value--that the buyer and the seller value what they are getting more than what they are giving up--and that can happen without the various criteria of transparency you outline.

No, that's important to a market period. A free market is a specific thing.

You need the other things to move away from the necessity of government regulation (transparency, for example.) If you don't know what's in that apple and nobody is going to make sure it's safe, you can't buy or sell it efficiently.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ancap on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:40PM (#16554812)
Even absent government regulation, I still don't see consumers being terribly concerned about the source of their apple. Why? Because the quality of it is reflected by the reputation of the seller. But even if I were to concede the argument for the particular case of food, that does not mean that knowledge of provenance is a prerequisite for a free market.

>You need the other things to move away from the necessity of government regulation

I guess this is the crux of the matter. You are suggesting that transparency must pre-exist a free market, I am suggesting that a free market pre-exists transparency, and when necessary transparency will be demanded by the consumers.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by ameister14 on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:37PM (#16556353)
>You are suggesting that transparency must pre-exist a free market, I am suggesting that a free market pre-exists transparency, and when necessary transparency will be demanded by the consumers.

The issue, I think, is that we have a different definition for a free market. A free market, by the definition I am using, functions at peak efficiency and is free from monopoly and large stakeholder or government intervention/regulation. For that to occur, the kind of transparency I'm talking about must theoretically be present.

If transparency came afterward, what happened prior would not be perfectly efficient and would be vulnerable to monopolization, intervention or unbalanced deals and so would not, by definition, be a free market.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by kalcode on Monday March 12, 2018 @02:40PM (#16570322)
In a truly free-market who would enforce this 'transparency'?

That is the whole point against it, no one would enforce it.

You say the people would but would they? Would they care? People in the US know about 'blood' diamonds, heck a movie came out with an extremely famous cast and helped get lots of people aware of the dirty trade of diamonds.

Diamonds still sell extremely well. Banking on the common person to push for transparency and help improve the market by not 'supporting' these diamonds doesn't work already. They know about diamonds trade and people still constantly buy them.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by pjc50 on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:31AM (#16551558)
Someone should tell the bitcoin people.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by lawlessone on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:55AM (#16551727)
But now we can make more diamonds :) there will never be more than 21 million bitcoin
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by tsaoyu on Friday March 09, 2018 @10:07AM (#16552200)
Great business idea. Here is the freshly made AD[1]. Curious to see if there is any business plan follow ups.

[1](https://i.imgur.com/oD50taU.png)

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by sduclos on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:33PM (#16554755)
Priceless!

So, a real diamond of fake value is used to engrave fake value of real bitcoin .. or something ..

xkcd material!

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by adbachman on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:08AM (#16551801)
Until the next fork! Then there will never be more than 42 million bitcoin.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by zhte415 on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:44AM (#16552031)
;) Until the nexr coin. And the next one. Etc...
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by tzahola on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:56AM (#16551732)
Synthetic bitcoins when?
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by pjc50 on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:42AM (#16552021)
That's what all these altcoins and ICOs are.
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by megaman22 on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:55AM (#16551377)
I guess if there's no blood on your diamond, it isn't real...
Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by petre on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:14AM (#16551470)
It is only in the last half decade that technology has advanced to a level that scientists at De Beers, itself a pioneer in lab-grown diamond production [..]

Of course they have their own diamond growing lab and Deep Sea diamond mining rigs. I too hope are beaten by other market players.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/a-new-frontier-f...

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by lawlessone on Friday March 09, 2018 @08:56AM (#16551735)
>Deep Sea diamond mining rigs

That's actually ridiculous, we're destroying the enviroment to mine something we can produce cheaper in a factory.

Not to mention the issues with blood diamonds. child labour etc.

Re:Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems by jseliger on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:47AM (#16552056)
Me too. When I was in the diamond market I got some from Diamond Foundry: https://qz.com/630512/would-you-propose-with-a-diamond-grown... which I also learned about on HN! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13038912 although I can't find which submission.