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Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:27PM (#16548280)
I found most insightful the following comment by David Edmondson

> Something drilled home to me at my Cornell planning program was the American idea of rural as utopia, urban as dystopia. As my professor would put it, our culture strives for a return to the Garden of Eden – it’s seen in our art, our land-use patterns (pre- and post-independence), our mythology, and our politics. Even Philadelphia was laid out with that idea in mind.

I think that is one of the core issues. The idea of having your own home on your own plot of land is something that is deep in the American psyche.

And it is something that can be accomplished. Why is there not more remote work even at the big tech companies? If everybody was not forced to crowd into Silicon Valley in order to work for the large tech companies, Silicon Valley and San Francisco home prices would get much better quickly.

Many times, people feel like they are forced to live in cities, not because they want to, but because they have to for their job. If we promoted a culture of remote work, then people could live where they wanted, more wealth would get spread out through the country rather than being concentrated in NYC and Silicon Valley, and the affordability of living in cities would rise.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by electricslpnsld on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:48PM (#16548418)
> Many times, people feel like they are forced to live in cities, not because they want to, but because they have to for their job.

Is this true? I work in a suburbanish portion of the bay area, and 90% of my coworkers commute in from San Francisco and Western Oakland. San Francisco is more expensive and is further away, but the advantages of urban living are multi-fold. Walkable neighborhoods, access to more restaurants, bars, and nightlife, access to more culture (museums, openings, concerts, etc), more people to meet and talk to, etc. Given the choice I would almost certainly choose to live in a city vs. a suburb or rural area.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by khedoros1 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:38PM (#16548970)
I've chosen to live outside of large cities, in suburban areas. I think of cities as the noisy, hectic places that I'll visit occasionally for some specific purpose, then want to leave as soon as possible. They feel like crowded, hostile places to me.

A big part of that is probably that I wasn't raised in a city, so my contact with them has been while on vacation. Living somewhere and vacationing somewhere are certainly very different experiences.

I live within walking distance of about a dozen restaurants and a bar. I've never been a nightlife guy. There are museums and concert halls 30-60 minutes from here. My home is fairly cheap for the area, and I live under 15 minutes away from work. I don't feel like I'm missing out.

So while I understand that a lot of people would like to live in a city, I don't see the attraction. I feel like the downsides outweigh the benefits.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by xapata on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:31AM (#16550123)
> within walking distance of a dozen restaurants and a bar

You're not in the suburbs. At least not the kind that cityfolk say are soulless wastes. It sounds like you live in the downtown of a village or town.

When I think of the 'burbs, I think of vast expanses of asphalt where only the poorest would consider walking and labyrinth enclaves of cul-de-sacs where taking the kid to play with a neighbor requires a half-mile drive to go 500 feet as the crow flies.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by dragonwriter on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:01AM (#16550206)
> When I think of the 'burbs, I think of vast expanses of asphalt where only the poorest would consider walking and labyrinth enclaves of cul-de-sacs where taking the kid to play with a neighbor requires a half-mile drive to go 500 feet as the crow flies.

Modern design (and redesign, though that has less freedom) of low-density suburbs, while still avoiding street grids to limit residential traffic speeds, often embraces walking and bike paths that are more direct than roadways, and designs that improve transit serviceability, instead of using the branching, cul-de-sac dominated structure of, say, 1960s suburbs.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by khedoros1 on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:26AM (#16550469)
In a town, but not in its downtown. There are just enough strip malls interspersed between the tract homes to make walking possible. I'm right next to one. In one direction up the largest nearby street, there are some light commercial and industrial areas. In the other direction (albeit slightly farther, maybe a half hour's walk), is another row of stores anchored by a grocery. If I take that walk, there's a good chance that I won't meet anyone else on the sidewalk in that time.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by xapata on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:58AM (#16552125)
My goal for walkable is to have a good grocery within a 5-minute walk, so that I wouldn't be annoyed if I forgot to pick something up and had to go back. I'd like a dozen good restaurants and a few bars within 10 minutes. So, probably 4x that to allow for different tastes.

Further, I want that walk to be reasonably populated all day and into the night, so I feel safe.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by khedoros1 on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:10PM (#16556199)
We've got different goals =)

Under half an hour away from work (by whatever means), somewhere I can afford to buy, quiet neighborhood, nice view, trees around, good schools, not too tightly packed, with a reputation of being safe enough that I don't have to worry if no one else is around.

Walkability is a plus, but not at the cost of other goals. If I ever want to see family or friends, a car is a given. Survival doesn't strictly require one, but it would complicate a number of things.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:51PM (#16548435)
What is your coworkers' age range. In the past, young people would start in the city. Once they married/had children, they would move out the suburbs.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by refurb on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:59PM (#16548490)
That's the trend I've noticed. Lots of 20 and 30 year old live in SF. Once the family expands, the first question is "when do we move out of the city?".

When you've got kids, things like bars and restaurants take a back seat to good schools and family-friendly neighborhoods.

Of all my coworkers with children, maybe 10% chose to stick it out in SF and they seem to bitch non-stop about the schools.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by xxpor on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:28PM (#16548645)
It's not predetermined that neighborhoods in the city aren't "family friendly" though, that's a choice we've made though policy.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by michaelt on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:02PM (#16548802)
Well, part of the family-unfriendliness is competition for cities' limited housing supply.

If a family with two adults and three children wants a 3-bedroom property, their budget depends on two adults' salaries minus the costs of three children.

On the other hand, if it's house-shared by four childless adults in their mid 20s, their budget is four adults' salaries, with none of the costs of children.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by bobthepanda on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:30AM (#16550119)
Lots of cities manage to do well with children; New York is an above-average performing urban school district with a million kids enrolled.

The problem is that with the rise of housing as an investment vehicle, cities have rapidly increased in price. In most countries housing is not a high-yield investment like stocks, it's a safer, low-yield investment like bonds. REITs have managed to destroy the goal of affordable housing for most people.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by xapata on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:50AM (#16550355)
I wouldn't blame it on REITs but the vastly greater real lifetime income of the previous generations. Wages have been declining since the 70s.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jdavis703 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:37PM (#16548967)
I can't speak for OP, but most of my co-workers are in their 40s and 50s, but they live in SF or very built up inner-suburban areas. Not saying this is true of everyone, but this common trope does have some contradictory anecdotes.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by electricslpnsld on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:51PM (#16548439)
> What is your coworkers' age range.

20s through 50s.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by paganel on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:12PM (#16548840)
Another gem from the comments is this part:

> London is now building so-called “co-housing” which sounds like it should be for retirees but is for the working young who have been priced out of even renting (let alone purchase) but IMO that is a shocking non-solution. It is forced barracks living–for people in their 20s and 30s (soon … 40s & 50s)–and seems very redolent of USSR communal apartments with shared kitchens etc. The common thing within the Anglosphere (and places that mimick it, like HK) is the abandonment of public housing for at least the last 35 years (since 1997 for HK), along with tax policies that promote unproductive property speculation.

I live in a former communist country, and as an urbanism-buff one of the projects I was thinking about in my head was to hunt down the remaining barrack-like buildings that are still extant (most of them have been built in the 1950s and the early 1960s as a temporary solution for a fast-growing urban population, very few actually still exist). Interesting to see that the "West" is resorting to the same ideas 50-60 years after we did.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by blackbagboys on Thursday March 08, 2018 @08:55PM (#16549318)
This is actually a return to a common urban housing pattern that disappeared with the middle-class exodus from urban centers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_room_occupancy#History

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by mercutio2 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @08:51PM (#16549297)
People sometimes redefine terms, but just for reference, this doesn’t sound anything like what the cohousing community [0] is trying to achieve in the US.

[0] http://www.cohousing.org/what_is_cohousing

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by Kalium on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:40PM (#16548356)
> Why is there not more remote work even at the big tech companies? If everybody was not forced to crowd into Silicon Valley in order to work for the large tech companies, Silicon Valley and San Francisco home prices would get much better quickly.

You're absolutely right! There's a lot that can be done, and it can be done by the big tech companies. However, I'm told it is possible that there might actually be some advantages to sharing a physical location that are not readily replicated remotely. Maybe those people are wrong and I'm horribly misinformed, but what I've read does suggest that the costs are worth it.

Maybe you have better ideas? I hope so! Please, help me understand better!

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:54PM (#16548456)
These same tech companies also have remote offices. Obviously, it does not have to be completely face to face. Maybe, in the future, VR will get to the point where you can have a virtual office experience that will be close enough to the real experience from the comfort of your home.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by Kalium on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:59PM (#16548493)
You're right! That's absolutely possible. I've had the experience of working with such offices. I've also had the experience of working with a partially distributed team that encourages working from home. In each case, I found distinct disadvantages compared physical co-location. Both for companies and for employees.

I share your hope for the possibilities offered by VR, but I'm hesitant to shape urban planning policy for decades around it.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:34PM (#16548326)
I don't think this is true. I used to work for a company in a Connecticut suburb of NYC. Most young people wanted to live in NYC and commute in because they'd rather live in a city.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by nostromo on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:42PM (#16548384)
I lived in NYC for about five years. I noticed that urban living is prized by people in their 20s, but seems to quickly fall out of fashion later in life. Particularly when it comes to child-bearing age, large cities like New York are fairly impractical for the non-rich. My friends in their 30s and 40s that hadn't left for the suburbs would regularly talk about how they wanted to leave the city.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by electricslpnsld on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:50PM (#16548434)
> Particularly when it comes to child-bearing age, large cities like New York are fairly impractical

Parts of New York City are incredibly child friendly. Park Slope, and huge swaths of Brooklyn and Queens, are chock full of families.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:59PM (#16548496)
NYC is a big city in terms of land area. Given the distance from Manhattan and core of the city, Brooklyn and Queens would be considered suburbs in a lot of other cities.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by electricslpnsld on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:04PM (#16548524)
I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to Park Slope, Bed Stuy, or Crown Heights as suburban. Levittown is the usual yard-stick by which American suburbanism is measured.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by cimmanom on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:20PM (#16548610)
Maybe based on distance as the crow flies. But not based on density, and (when the subways aren't as broken as they are at the moment) not based on commute times.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by naravara on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:54PM (#16548460)
>The idea of having your own home on your own plot of land is something that is deep in the American psyche.

This idea destroys what any normal people think of as actual rural or country life. Densely clustered homes and buildings (like this: http://www.citymetric.com/sites/default/files/styles/nodeima... or like this: http://tomsavagebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Swiss-t...) do a much better job of preserving the landscape and the ecology than sprawling out (like this: http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/d46e2d569d6948eea499aa20f2d1709c/n...) does.

Also, the appeal of living in the country isn't privately owned "wide open spaces" it's that cozy small town vibe where everyone knows each other and is in each others' business all the time (for better or worse). If all you want to have a ton of space for yourself it's actually fairly easy to do that, it's just hard to expect society to subsidize the infrastructure that makes it convenient and easy to have your social and commercial needs met at the same time.

>If we promoted a culture of remote work, then people could live where they wanted, more wealth would get spread out through the country rather than being concentrated in NYC and Silicon Valley, and the affordability of living in cities would rise.

Cities have what are called agglomeration effects. Work isn't just punching a clock for a wage, especially not knowledge work. It takes creativity and collaboration to get good results and not being able to do that in real way with your colleagues just doesn't work.

Also, most people in nice cities actually rather enjoy it once you take noise and cost of living issues out of the equation. The former is just a problem of not investing enough in noise abatement and the latter is just an issue of not having enough mixed-use urban land available for the number of people who want that lifestyle.

>more wealth would get spread out through the country rather than being concentrated in NYC and Silicon Valley

Or you could spread a culture of urbanism so places like Cincinnati or Minneapolis can build themselves the same kinds of civic amenities that draw people to New York and Silicon Valley and fostered the kinds of entrepreneurship that made those cities into what they are today.

The wealth in NYC and SF aren't properties of the soil. Those places are rich because the people there built businesses that made them rich. Sure, having major ports helped but that hasn't been a significant enough factor to bring cities like Baltimore, New Orleans, or St. Louis to prominence in the modern economy.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by forapurpose on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:10PM (#16548559)
> people feel like they are forced to live in cities

Based on what I know, people are flocking to cities because they want to be there, and companies are locating there in order to be attractive to employees. Cities have very high levels of services (due to economy of scale and density), restaurants, the arts, sports, walkability, bikeability, energy, community ... sustainability ...

San Francisco has all that in one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Many people prefer that.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:22PM (#16548621)
San Francisco is also less sanitary than many of the poorest slums in the world.

https://sf.curbed.com/2018/2/19/17029308/trash-needles-feces...

I am not sure I want my children dealing with human feces (and the risk of diseases such as hepatitis A) and used needles as part of their childhood experience.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by shard on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:39PM (#16548697)
Hepatitis A vaccines are fairly simple: 2 shots in 6 months give 12 months of protection, and a third shot after 6 more months gives 20 years of protection. Children as young as 1 year old can be given the vaccine. Please talk to your doctor about getting this vaccine to protect you and your loved ones against this disease.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by khedoros1 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @08:08PM (#16549132)
And, defense in depth: Also don't take your children places where people are pooping on the street, or leaving around needles, if you can help it.

Although I don't see why "just get a vaccine" is a sufficient response to "I don't want my children around feces and needles".

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by shard on Thursday March 08, 2018 @10:17PM (#16549579)
You read too much into my reply. My only point was that hepatitis A is a disease that is easily defended against, and I wanted to spread that knowledge.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by so33 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:29PM (#16548931)
This is not a problem innate to cities, and it’s not even endemic within cities that have these problems.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by khedoros1 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @08:09PM (#16549140)
It's not innate to cities...but SF's got some cleanliness problems that other cities in the country don't.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by dsfyu404ed on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:48PM (#16549023)
>This is not a problem innate to cities, and it’s not even endemic within cities that have these problems.

Density still matters though. You can go your whole life in the middle of nowhere without seeing someone take a dump in a public place or see a car that's been broken into.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by aninhumer on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:57AM (#16550996)
Not really. The places where people are most likely to defecate in the street are places without toilet infrastructure, which in a global context, is much more a property of undeveloped rural areas than it is of dense cities.

The problem in cities is usually that some people aren't allowed to use any of the many toilets that exist, which is a much easier problem to fix.