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Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:06PM (#16522452)
Interesting. No one has yet mentioned today's lack of community.

We don't share a sense of place any more, we move around from job to job, families spread around the country or globe. We rarely share an emotional connection and sense of place with our neighbours that our grandparents would have known. We haven't even kept the sense of virtual community that the BBS's had - social networks amplify dissent and engagement, not friendship and connection.

That's before you get to the amount of divorce and people living alone, with less and less free time or money outside of work.

I'm not the least bit surprised loneliness is becoming a global epidemic.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by hliyan on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:15PM (#16522528)
Agreed. Perhaps this is not exactly what you meant, but I do feel that shared spaces are shrinking and private spaces are expanding. I found this particular quote from The Atlantic quite telling:

"The United States is in some ways becoming a medieval society, in which people live and work in the modern equivalent of castles--gated communities, apartment buildings with doormen, and office buildings with guards--and try to shield themselves while traveling between them. They do this by riding in sport-utility vehicles, which look armored, and by trying to appear as intimidating as possible to potential attackers." - Keith Bradsher

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/suvs-and...

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by tdeck on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:38PM (#16524691)
Did most people live and work in castles in the medieval era?
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by jchrisa on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:47PM (#16522824)
Sell your car and start biking year round. You won't be lonely for long.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by Omnus on Monday March 05, 2018 @01:53PM (#16523337)
What on Earth could you possibly mean by that? You'll magically make deep, abiding, social ties by riding a bicycle?
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by jpindar on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:23PM (#16523612)
Well, it works for motorcycles. Sometimes I think I should get back into riding just for that reason.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by 13of40 on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:09PM (#16524420)
Biking and walking to work are a couple of the loneliest activities I've tried.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by scruple on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:40PM (#16525238)
I like to play "Will anyone smile and say, 'Hello!' back to me today?" whenever I'm out walking/cycling/running. The answer is more often than not, "Nope, no takers today."
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by toomuchtodo on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:33PM (#16524110)
I'm not against this idea, but an inattentive 23 year old driver who failed to yield killed a bicyclist crossing an interstate on ramp (in the crosswalk) down the street from my house last week, so there is risk involved.

Riding bicycles alone isn't going to help; its going to take decades of urban planning to fix the last 60 years of mistakes.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by JBlue42 on Monday March 05, 2018 @08:49PM (#16526270)
Just to give an alternate take on the comment from how others are replying:

Maybe look at it as joining a community, not specifically being about cycling. Being a cyclist gives you something in common with someone else that you can talk about it and, when doing it, it's rather visible. A running club, writing group, etc. can be similar.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by btrettel on Monday March 05, 2018 @10:41PM (#16526704)
Depends on what you mean by lonely, I think.

I'm a transportation cyclist, but I don't think being a cyclist has measurably increased the number of friends I have. It did give me something in common with quite a few of my friends, but I didn't meet any of them through cycling. For a while I tried joining a cycling club, but I found that I didn't have much in common with racing cyclists.

Being a cyclist did however does apparently increase the number of people who seem willing to harm me, unfortunately. That's not loneliness, but it's not good either.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by enervate on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:01PM (#16523886)
Is this just dark humor or are cyclists just gregarious?
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by kodis on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:54PM (#16524298)
Not the OP, but I suspect that it's less about bikers and cyclists in particular and more a matter of coming into contact with other people who share an interest. Taking up golf or tennis would likely have the same effect.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by heedlessly3 on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:42PM (#16524193)
this guy clearly lives in the city. Some people live in the suburbs where cars are needed to commute to work
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by irrational on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:59PM (#16525345)
Well, I live in the suburbs and ride my bike to and from work. Though my work is just 2 miles from my house. However, the vast majority of time I see nobody (other than people in cars) while riding my bike, so I'm not exactly sure what OP means by bike riding being a way to not be lonely.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by adamjc on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:15PM (#16525019)
For a given definition of 'suburb'. My commute is 10 miles each way, not a problem.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by quanticle on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:23PM (#16525508)
>We don't share a sense of place any more, we move around from job to job, families spread around the country or globe.

That's not true. US labor mobility is the lowest it's been for generations. Our parents' and grandparents' generations had far more people that moved for work. In fact, there's a strong case to be made that a lot of social problems result from people not having the opportunity to move to areas of greater economic opportunity, whether it's because they're caring for elderly parents, or because housing is too expensive in those areas, or credentialism and increased licensing requirements have made it impractical for them to move across state lines. Whatever the cause, a wide range of economists and social scientists believe that more mobility, not less will help solve many of the pressing social issues that we face.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/07/labour-...

http://neighborhoodeffects.mercatus.org/2017/01/26/why-the-l...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/upshot/its-not-the-inequa...

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:02PM (#16524887)
No one has yet mentioned today's lack of community...We rarely share an emotional connection and sense of place with our neighbours that our grandparents would have known.

A big part of this is the degree to which people in their 20's and 30's are willing to unperson someone in public spaces -- even in person -- just for the suspicion of holding to the wrong ideological viewpoint, or even just for being from the "wrong tribe." It's so common to encounter some sort of unfounded imputation of hidden unsavory motivations. This sort of thing manifested itself in the 80's as a bigoted/snap judgement questioning of one's religious affiliation or sexual orientation.

It was back in the 80's and 90's when I started to develop my information-flow technique for evaluating people: I would watch how they would evaluate me, and gauge what information they used to jump to which conclusions. Bigots often jump to wildly inaccurate conclusions quickly on scant information. Bigots often impute under-the surface motivations without justifiable evidence. I've seen such jumping/imputation in rural South Carolina and from people in poor white neighborhoods in Ohio. What's surprising to me, is the remarkable frequency with which I've seen essentially the same jumping/imputation in the Bay Area.

If you want community, start by exercising the Principle of Charity. Allow for a Loyal Opposition. The vast majority of people have well-meaning (as well as self serving) reasons for their positions. If you want community, let people speak and listen to them. If you want to destroy community, then silence people and impute dark motives.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by erikpukinskis on Monday March 05, 2018 @10:26PM (#16526647)
I came out of academic circles in California in my young adulthood, and I see the snap judgements you refer to quite often in myself.

I think I was on a track where I valued learning and inference above everything, and that gave me a kind of a weird cognitive bias. Things I could rationalize that weren’t obvious got ++points in my head. The result being I overtrained towards using “scant” information, to use your nomenclature, and undertrained more abundant information sources that were more easily apprehended.

Kind of a masochistic information bias.

It did open my mind to some (very real) things that few people notice. Which is useful. But it also closed me off to some quite useful but more mundane realities. I probably share a lot with conspiracy theorists in that way.

It’s been hard reorienting myself out of that. In some ways I’ve overcompensated now and become more gullible.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by pacificleo11 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:44AM (#16535116)
"It’s been hard reorienting myself out of that. " I am very keen to know how you did that . I suffer from same habit
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by b0rsuk on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:21PM (#16525078)
My pet peeve: matchmaking in games vs dedicated servers. Yes, dedicated servers had problems, and required some technical know-how to run as well as decent hardware. But they were mini communities. And some people actually enjoy matches with some level of imbalance. Mopping up a few players, getting smashed when you stumble upon a great one. There were some to watch out for.

Long story short these days I play single player games and board games. As a bonus, a well thought out board game stays relevant forever. It never has its servers disabled or becomes incompatible with new system.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by DenisM on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:31PM (#16524631)
FWIW, my gym instructor proposed that the gym could be the new church - a place for people to come together. I don't feel it works out (he he), but it might be an interesting place to start thinking. I posted this list of suggestions earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16425522
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by mancerayder on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @11:18AM (#16529759)
I work out at a gym, and my workout takes about 1h15 to 1.5 hours, and then I have a shower and a commute. But if you have time to socialize during a workout, you either have a lot of free time or you're doing it all wrong.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by remar on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:29PM (#16533667)
I've never really understood how people seem to socialize between work sets. I've tried and it just completely kills my focus and momentum between sets.

I've noticed the people at my gym who seem to talk the most are the ones who don't really come to train, but to just casually exercise. They don't seem to be following a particular program, or even know what they're doing when it comes to performing certain lifts etc.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by mancerayder on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:33PM (#16533677)
At my gym, a big chain in my city, there's the word Club constantly used, and it does attract certain types who just like to meet people or chat up people.

I can understand maybe being a small group doing circuits, but for strength training there's no time in between sets to have a conversation. I set a timer of between 2 and 3 minutes if I'm not supersetting, I'm not the best conversationalist during that interval.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by arximboldi on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:22PM (#16524538)
I agree. However, in spite of my collectivist tendencies, I have to admit myself that it is too easy to romanticise communities from the past. They could be vicious holes with no room for scape, as the rural book trilogy from García Lorca or movies like the White Ribbon illustrate...
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by bluntfang on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:48AM (#16529510)
There's the concept of a 3rd place[1]. Traditionally a male-centric idea, but as the gender equality gap decreases they will be more and more important for everyone.

Basically, there are 2 standard places that adults spend most of their time: Work and Home. The 3rd place is a community space like a barber shop, and allows people to participate in their community, meet people, share ideas, ect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by tischler on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:02PM (#16524886)
.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:07PM (#16524931)
The liberation of women has basically caused a diffusion of responsibility of communal tasks...Yeah, so maybe it was actually a bad idea.

Well, heck, you could say the same thing for Capitalism, which has also benefited billions materially. Liberation is bound to cause social disruption. The problem isn't the liberation. It's how society needs to (re)organize itself around change. It's ossification in how society views itself, which may exist in the older, traditional part, as well as in newer conceptions. The problem is ideological rigidity, which can be found in both the religious right and the secular left. You shouldn't be rigid when it's time to adjust.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by fapjacks on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:13PM (#16525000)
I think this is right. The problem is people being forced or coerced to do things that don't actually make them happy. An ideological rigidity about expectations. But this tribalism is what makes human beings human. We're not going to get rid of that anytime soon, at least not without fundamentally changing the nature of the human animal. The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy. And make "happiness discovery" much easier by changing the way we educate our young. Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:26PM (#16525133)
this tribalism is what makes human beings human.

It's perfectly reasonable to construct a tribalism which aids in discovering the truth. Science itself is an example.

The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy.

One of the best things we can do, is to have many non-exceptional role models, on which younger generations can make incremental improvements. What's needed isn't a whole-cloth re-imagining of the entire social reality. We need a kind of progressive traditionalism, where people can try and evolve towards a better society without dropping complex cultural systems which create value and human well-being.

Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.

I think it's far better to make people aware of the "price" up front, so such deep commitments are made by people who are ready.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by fapjacks on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:39PM (#16525617)
I think people underestimate the inherent conflict that arises from the complex cultural systems you're talking about. I mean, obviously there is conflict, but I think it's way more intrinsic to our species than most people believe. And the conflict reinforces existing belief structures, stereotypes about outgroup members, and is then used to justify proliferating or escalating the conflict further. I agree with you that tribal constructs like science are a positive social development. And for example Stoicism and Taoism seem to be aimed squarely at reducing the inherent conflict of tribalism. I like the idea of making the costs more visible up front, and would definitely make that a part of the "happiness discovery" process of education.

With respect to creating positive and beneficial social systems, however, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about. I'd love to be wrong, though. And so if what I'm saying is true, then it would seem to point back to education.

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key. Like Will Durant said: "Education is the transmission of civilization". That being said, "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" and nothing is better at teaching the lesson that war is hell and should not be undertaken lightly than a good old fashioned war (e.g. the Long Peace). Ah, but now here is the main reason I think a human hivemind would truly bring us into a kind of shining Star Trek utopia: I could just share my wartime memories and combat experiences with people that haven't been to war. That would certainly work to turn people off of it. I really kinda went off on a tangent here, sorry!

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:53PM (#16525691)
However, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about.

Why would you say that? Other than broad outlines, there are not so many constants in ways of life across history and around the world. Or, are you talking about broad outlines?

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key.

My take is that Utopia == Neverland. It's like infinity. It's a useful concept, but you'll never have it physically realized within your grasp.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by fapjacks on Monday March 05, 2018 @07:39PM (#16525932)
So, I'm not going to get too much into semantics because it's not interesting, and we could grind on it forever. But the essence of social interaction and group dynamics has hundreds of thousands of years of permutation behind it, and I'm pretty confident that human beings aren't going to come up with a new way of reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism without changing the definition of human being. The definition which includes what it means to be a human individual or a group, or what it means to communicate between human individuals and groups.
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Monday March 05, 2018 @08:10PM (#16526095)
I'm pretty confident that human beings aren't going to come up with a new way of reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism without changing the definition of human being.

This is manifestly false. We went from murdering all out-group, to cultures of hospitality to strangers. We went from killing all members of defeated groups to enslaving them, then eventually went on to abolish slavery. We went from unfettered squabbles and mob violence to having the guilty hold bars of iron to prove their innocence before a deity to due process and trials.

History has clear examples of human beings "reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism." Human beings have, in fact, done this by changing the philosophical understanding of what constitutes a human being, so not far off from, "changing the definition of human being." This conception used to just mean a body. Then it came to incorporate a "soul." In many cultures, the person was equivalent with their "honor," which kind of amounted to their public image and reputation. (It was so in the early days of the USA, in fact.) Now we have a much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self, which is evolving still.

The definition which includes what it means to be a human individual or a group, or what it means to communicate between human individuals and groups.

Clearly this is changing and evolving. Much of the time, it appears to be getting closer to some kind of objective truth.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by fapjacks on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @04:18AM (#16527795)
Oh, you're one of those people that thinks we're exceptional from our historical counterparts. Or exceptional as Americans from the rest of the world. You would do well to read some of that history you're supposed to be pulling clear examples from. And you should really take a look at what our "much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self" does every day in unfortunate shithole countries around the world. Or even what we do in nice countries.

What you think is an illusion. Add a layer of abstraction to get rid of implementation details, and we're the same animals the Romans were.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by voidmain on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:44AM (#16529111)
"John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by stcredzero on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @11:54AM (#16530020)
Oh, you're one of those people that thinks we're exceptional from our historical counterparts. Or exceptional as Americans from the rest of the world.

Neither of those follows from the gp comment. (Careful, your biases are showing!)

And you should really take a look at what our "much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self" does every day in unfortunate shithole countries around the world. Or even what we do in nice countries.

You make some good points. However, I didn't say we were done; Just that we've made undeniable progress.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by watwut on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:25PM (#16525125)
Another reason you cannot revert is that many women will fight you as much as they can to not revert to 1960 era. The idea is scary, I would much rather have you lonely then me being women in 1960.

Sacrificing confidence, feeling like I am actually capable, social status, ability to be independent and all that in exchange to emptiness of lonely largely pointless household work and forced dependence sounds like bad deal.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by ShorsHammer on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:10PM (#16525425)
The world in 1950 was very different to today. Find it amazing someone is brave enough to claim gender equality was the sole cause for half the population being subjectively sadder as recorded by a wide array of surveys conducted to various standards.

Why not blame modern marketing techniques, the rise of human interaction replacing technology or leaded petrol while we're at it.

The correalations are all there and just as valid.

Re:Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? by NiklasMort on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:05PM (#16523449)
this!