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Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by castle-bravo on Sunday March 04, 2018 @08:51PM (#16518117)
I don't have kids and I don't know anybody who has kids on ADHD medication, so I'm ignorant about this, but I have a hard time believing that people put their kids on stimulants without knowing what these drugs are and what they do; especially when it's possible to look up the Wikipedia article on Adderall and see that it's nothing but amphetamine. I'd be further surprised if none of these parents were interested enough to try out their kids' prescriptions on themselves; I would be.

It's awfully cynical, but I think that a lot of parents have a good idea what they're giving to their kids and do it anyway because they think the stimulants will give them a competitive edge in school, college admissions, and ultimately lead to higher incomes. The cost of not drugging your kid might be that they don't fit in, are singled out for punishment by school staff, and end up handicapped by their negative experiences in school. It's a very tough decision, even if you know what's in those pills.

I just wish the dosages were lower. Having tried a few of my friends' prescriptions over the years, I've found that even "low" doses get me high and then leave me with a hangover. I might be particularly sensitive (I get euphoric from taking 30mg of pseudoephedrine), but I'm a 180-pound adult. I can't imagine what an 18mg dose of methylphenidate does to a prepubescent boy. At worst, the 'high' from taking these drugs therapeutically should be subliminal.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:37AM (#16519000)
> I just wish the dosages were lower

Two things.

First, the first 1-2 days of ADHD meds can have a dramatic effect that have you thinking "this can't be right". It's normal, expected, and goes away very quickly. You should be warned to expect it by the prescribing doctor. After 3 days or so you barely know you're taking them.

Second, the dosage and effect on a non-ADHD person is entirely different to that an ADHD person will get. That's presuming it's the right med for them[0]. You will have a stimulating, speed, effect. An ADHD person (well most) will get little to no stimulation, and a calming effect, and might sit down to do their homework, or even just sit still for a couple of hours - for the first time ever. Amphetamines don't do that to normal neurology, thus you can't compare.

The dosage is putting them closer to typical, but putting you far away from typical. If you were normal vision or long sighted and tried your friend's short sight prescription glasses you wouldn't wish their glasses were weaker, would you? Same principle.

It's also common for one or other parent to discover they have it too after they have tried their child's meds.

[0] Getting the right medication is a bit of a trial and error minefield, but should be a standard part of treatment. Not all doctors are as willing to switch medication or titrate dosage as they should be.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by throwaway1748 on Monday March 05, 2018 @09:12AM (#16521124)
Sure, but the procedure for testing vision is far more precise than how we diagnose issues with someone's mind. There's just no way to know 1) to what degree someone's neurology differs from the "norm" 2) if the adderall is truly having the effect of "normalizing" the patient's brain or if it just appears that way to an outside observer.

These are dangerous stimulants that are shockingly similar to readily abused street drugs.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by jjeaff on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:31AM (#16519398)
Another note is that body weight does not necessarily correlate to drug potency/dosage. Only in some drugs (like alcohol) does body weight make a difference.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by goldenkey on Monday March 05, 2018 @09:55AM (#16521401)
Amphetamines affect physicality for everyone in similar ways. Heart rate, metabolism, blood pressure, etc. Please don't spread misinformation.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @10:45AM (#16521773)
OK, the specialist at the ADHD centre may have advised me incorrectly, and I am imagining the effects. Effects that are basically the opposite of what you and hnuser1234 describe in the thread above, and rather like huffmsa and many others have reported. For example, I have never once experienced "a cold robotic mind space" on medication, or anything close, even on the very first day. Which variant of ADHD do you have btw?

Not surprising there are a range of effects, when it's fairly common to need to try 3 or 4 different drugs before finding one that works. For a minority, none work.

Perhaps it's not "misinformation" but an attempt to honestly report what I gleaned from the specialist, and what I and others have experienced.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by goldenkey on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:49PM (#16523801)
A stimulant isn't a therepeutic drug. It's a hard drug with straightforward effects. Increased pleasure and increased activity, via dopaminergic and norepinephrine pathways, respectively.[1]

If you aren't having those effects you are most likely taking close to a maintanence dose, to avoid the rebound effect that comes with physical dependence.

If a person has trouble sleeping due to self control issues, should they just patch it over with addictive drugs like benzodiazepenes? Or should they try to discipline themselves by adapting to their unique brain and body, for lasting change?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by EggsOnToast on Monday March 05, 2018 @01:08AM (#16519101)
This is a pretty solid description of the situation. I take adderall at the moment and I've been on adhd meds since a little before highschool. College was funny when I went to parties because I'd see people taking stimulants (prescription and otherwise) for fun and all I could think was "Why would anyone want to party on this stuff?"
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @01:28AM (#16519158)
It's funny, the doctor brought that up after my diagnosis. If you've tried stimulants recreationally and they just didn't work, or if you just wanted to sit and chill, he saw that as a very strong indicator.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by empath75 on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:34AM (#16519409)
That’s so ridiculous. As someone who spent a lot of time in the rave scene— people respond to different dosages and settings in wildly different ways. Just because you did meth and wanted to chill and talk for a bit instead of go out dancing, that doesn’t mean you have adhd. You give ‘anybody’ speed and they’ll go on an apartment cleaning spree or just do homework on the right day, with the right dose.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by spiralx on Monday March 05, 2018 @10:27AM (#16521617)
It was through taking speed at parties that eventually led to my diagnosis - it ended up being something I did almost exclusively not at parties and for the purpose of getting things done, because it just didn't give me the same high feeling that most people talk about, it made me feel calmer.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:20AM (#16519788)
Perhaps, but it's an anecdote the specialist volunteered when we were talking after I got the diagnosis. I guess he didn't think it that ridiculous.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by empath75 on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:31AM (#16519397)
The idea that people with adhd and without it respond differently to speed is utter nonsense, since there is no way to diagnose what adhd is.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by oldcynic on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:38AM (#16519641)
I think it's nonsense to think we don't know what ADHD is.

There have been lots of studies using PET scans that show some brain regions tend to be smaller in ADHD, and develop later. Or finding differences in brain chemistry (dopamine and norepinephrine). Even started to show the genetic variation that leads to some growing out of it, and others not. Seems like it's becoming one of the better understood neurological disorders.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03...

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/408381/a-neurological-bas...

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by goldenkey on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:44PM (#16523765)
That's like saying stupid people have different brain activity than smart people. Isn't that a given? So should we give stupid people stimulants so they can become an unnatural and unlasting form of themselves? What happens when they need to get off the stimulants -- and they forgot what it was like to actually try to focus because the stimulants screwed with their brains' dopaminergic reward system?

Why should someone with a harder time focusing not improve their focus through actual lasting discipline?

Speed isn't the antichrist but it sure as hell isn't some great therapeutic fix for people with some minorly bad stats.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by rdtsc on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:07AM (#16518875)
It was described to be like this by a mother who went through this: she watched her child struggle with homework, not being able to focus, getting bad grades, falling behind in reading and math. One of doctors suggested this "pill". She gave it to her son, and then that same night she watched him sit down and do homework like she's never seen him before. In that respect it was an easy decision. That was in the late-80s or early 90s. Her son became pretty successful and is doing quite well. She credits that success in part to the decision to give him those pills.

It was not about a competitive edge, acing the SAT or going into Harvard, for them back then it was about not failing behind and ended up in remedial classes.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by goldenkey on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:09PM (#16525421)
A lot of times these kids are just slow...low IQ. Amphetamines increase IQ and general mental and physical performance temporarily. So the benefit is there but these parents should probably accept their childs aptitude rather than trying to augment it through hard stimulant drugs..
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by OutThisLife on Sunday March 04, 2018 @09:22PM (#16518240)
You have an interesting perspective but I think you're overestimating the average American parent. I'm around kids and their parents a lot, most don't do their due diligence - they just trust the authority figure of a doctor.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by watwut on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:52AM (#16519474)
The again, when they don't trust the doctor, they are called stupid and all kind of things.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by liveoneggs on Monday March 05, 2018 @10:20AM (#16521571)
it starts like this: the teacher says

"Billy is having a lot of trouble sitting still and paying attention. I think he might have ADHD. A lot of the other boys do and they've really improved since they started taking medicine for it."

Now since the teacher got compliance from other parents your kid is not given much slack. A solution has been presented and you choose to take it or not.

"Billy is still fidgeting in his chair all morning and lunch time is pushed back to 1:30pm this year because of staffing issues."

"Billy is struggling with math. We do it every day at 12 and I think he's just worn out from fidgeting in his seat all morning. And you know on wednesday he started acting out and being loud."

"I really think Billy has potential to do better. I hope you'll reconsider having him seen by someone to address his hyperactivity."

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by limeblack on Sunday March 04, 2018 @11:37PM (#16518755)
My cousin on ADHD meds lives with his grandparents. They don't have email addresses and only own an iPhone after much convincing.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by stagbeetle on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:56AM (#16519075)
I have ADHD and take mixed amphetamine salts so I'm not homeless.

18mg of methylphenidate is on the lower end of "middle" in terms of dosage. I can relate to the "drugged" feeling and euphoria and that's a common complaint (that they feel like they're wired or that the euphoria is gone after the first week!) within ADHD communities. However, it doesn't last after the "break-in period," where the side effects dwindle and so does the euphoria. All you're left with is focus in pill form. It also should be noted that amphetamines et al. affect neurotypicals (relatively) differently than those with dopamine/norepinepherine disorders. While neurotypicals commonly (from first and second-hand accounts) note that they feel high, those with ADHD feel like they're "normal."

If that's too broad and indescriptive, then I point to the account of a small subset of people who only found out they had ADHD from experimenting with stimulants. They find their life no longer becomes a Sisyphean task and they can function like a normal person. Whereas neurotypicals might start picking at their skin or masturbating for hours, those with ADHD will finally clean their rooms or make that phone call they've been meaning to make for the past 2 years.

As to your belief of the "well-meaning parent," I have to disagree. I have been around poor families, stable families, and rich families, but most parents don't have the first clue of what ADHD really is, even less what an "amphetamine" is. Or even how to use thoughtfully use Wikipedia and the internet to answer their questions, instead of differing their thinking to, seeming, authorities. It's akin to asking the box-spring salesman if your bed needs a box-spring. The box-spring salesman will tell you all of the benefits in easily digestible, and deftly crafted, sound-bites. And then you will accept his proclamations and move on with your life, believing he knows best. The same is done by the majority of people who are in contact with drugs and supplements. Even more so, parents who are too busy/exhausted/inflexible by virtue of the mental capacity degradation that comes with years of not having to use much thought to get by, i.e the bulk of parents.

Most people do not do cost-benefit analysis, but a subset of "involved" parents will allow their children to be medicated (whether rightfully or wrongfully) to let them get a step-up over their peers. To this I agree, but I don't believe it's as common as your argument makes it out to be. To the statement after about "the cost of not drugging," I agree, but like with last statement, it's not common among parents.

To the rest, I have to say, in my opinion, your statements reek of neurotypicalness. Atleast, not of someone that has a disability that separates them from other people. This is not an insult, but an elucidation on the disconnect between yourself and other people's mindsets. People are very common and predictable, but if you're among them you likely won't see how. One of these similarities is that they believe everyone thinks like them. For you, it might be a more rational approach. For someone else, it might be a more feelings-oriented approach, that mimics rationality by appealing to the homeostasis of one's emotional state.

It's hard to tell where someone is going when you're all moving in the same direction. Now move yourself to outside the crowd. You can see all the little peculiarities of everyone's movement. Like a school of fish, they're all synchronized, but those peculiarities set them apart. With major disabilities, you're forced outside that school of fish, and destined to stare at everyone, instead of moving with them. Overtime, all the different combinations of moves have been played out. All the idiosyncrasies have been enumerated, and there is nothing left to deduce, but that most people are too wrapped up in going forward that they never step back and take a breather. To unplug from the global consciousness and just watch the synapses of other people fire. To peer take a look at someone similar so you can recognize your own shortcomings.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by jamra on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:32AM (#16518984)
Stimulants don’t have the same effect on kids that they do in adults. They may even be downers. Well, that’s what my Uncle the doctor told me
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by boomboomsubban on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:52AM (#16519056)
Are you sure he wasn't comparing "people with ADHD to people without" as opposed to "kids vs adults?"
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by jamra on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:02AM (#16520201)
I am comparing kids vs adults, not people with ADD and without. Kids can react differently than adults. The source of that was my Uncle, which was confirmed by my children’s pediatrician. I don’t know the literature on it, though.

It doesn’t seem like good advice to try it on yourself to check if it’s good enough for a child. That was the point I was trying to make

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by boomboomsubban on Monday March 05, 2018 @07:49AM (#16520659)
Though I agree trying it yourself provides little useful information, your broader statement is still confusing.

An individuals reaction to stimulants varies based on a large number of factors. Though age may be one of the factors, it is not a large enough one to say "children react differently than adults." If they did react differently, stimulants being common for both children and adults with ADHD wouldn't make sense.

I mean no disrespect here, but might you have misremembered things doctors said about "your children" and changed it to all children? As people with ADHD do generally react differently to stimulants, with drowsiness being a common side effect.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by jamra on Monday March 05, 2018 @08:15AM (#16520791)
As I stated, some children react differently. An example is with Benadryl. Some children get a lot of energy and have an opposite effect.

With stimulants, I'm not sure if it's some or all children, however, my point was to apply a bit of skepticism towards trying medicine out on yourself as a filter for its efficacy on your child.

Edit: Here is a link for an example. It may actually be stating that stimulants in children do not have a paradoxical effect. I'm too uninterested to research this, but would be interested in a professional's opinion.

http://adhd.emedtv.com/adhd/adhd-myth-the-paradoxical-stimul...

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by boomboomsubban on Monday March 05, 2018 @12:30PM (#16522645)
It's still not "some children," it's "some people," though I must point out that you did not say some children. Without the "some" it's a much more troubling statement. It seems to be the same for Benadryl, as the only scientific source for any paradoxical effect I can find only saw it happening in three adults.

I'd take it the further step and say "don't take medicine prescribed for someone else."

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by michaelmrose on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:54AM (#16519688)
Its uninteresting to hear a point secondhand from someone who doesn't know enough to explicate the matter. Acquiring second hand authority doesn't improve this matter.
Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by jamra on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:00AM (#16520190)
So when someone claims that parents should try the medicine before giving it to their kids, that’s ok?

Here’s a simple one... why do some children react to Benadryl by getting a lot of energy? The rest of us get drowsy. Some children even get drowsy. Should we ask a pediatrician before commenting? At least that’s the warning my pediatrician told me, but apparently that’s second hand so it shouldn’t be mentioned by anyone but a licensed authority.

Re:The Drugging of the American Boy (2014) by michaelmrose on Monday March 05, 2018 @01:50PM (#16523309)
Advice from someone with minimal knowledge on a matter doesn't add to the discussion. You don't know enough to understand what you are passing on or know if its correct, to put it in useful context, to answer follow up questions.

Everyone has an uncle, brother, mother, friend whose a doctor/scientist/authority of some variety. They usually are as ill informed and wrong as the general populace but use their mother/brother/friend/second cousin for imagined and unwarranted borrowed authority.

Borrowed authority is actually such a fantastic sign of bad information that if someone said my brother the professor of mathmatics says 2+2 is 4 I would pull out my calculator to check if this was so.

Its also a logical fallacy to suppose that because I don't support your contribution to the discussion that I support the position that people should eat their kids meds. Someone can disagree with you or some detail of your discussion without acquiring the beliefs of whomever you are arguing against or imagine you are arguing against. Try to stick with what people actually say and argue that.

Lastly the idea that there is no middle ground between being educated enough on a matter to discuss it and consulting said professional before posting is disingenuous. You needn't be a doctor to discuss medicine on the internet just educate yourself on the matter rather than passing on slightly wrong anecdotes from prior conversations.