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Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:40PM (#16512624)
Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up and make it reasonable to argue that gutenberg.org is very well known in Germany and that lots of Germans have downloaded the books in question. The copyright owners are still selling those here and have probably already lost sales due to this. They tried to contact gutenberg.org, but where ignored. This isn't about free speech amd censorship.

> If you think those points create any sort of legal nexus in Germany, that would also imply that most activism and protest against authoritarian countries' laws should be illegal

illegal where?

> 3. You must know that hardly anyone uses .us.

I really didn't know. .de is very common in Germany.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by AnthonyMouse on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:40PM (#16513136)
> Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up

Others are doing a fine job of taking apart the specifics, but it's important to understand why this form of argument is itself a fallacy.

Inference works by taking into account new evidence and using it to adjust the probability with which you believe something to be true. So if you see Bob wearing a red shirt, you are more likely to believe that Bob owns a red shirt. Could still be that he has borrowed it or something, but it's now more likely he owns one than it was previously. By contrast, if you go all through Bob's bedroom and find zero red shirts, that makes it less likely, even though it's still possible he owns one that isn't in his bedroom.

The problem with allowing plaintiffs or prosecutors to play this game is that they can take the list of everything you've ever done, ignore everything that makes what they're trying to prove less likely and present only the list of things that make it more likely. If you look only at that evidence then each piece of it increases the probability that you believe what they want you to believe, regardless of whether it's actually true. How guilty they can make you look is directly proportional to their level of resources in finding things that make you look bad, independent of your actual guilt.

> I really didn't know. .de is very common in Germany.

Most countries have .co.uk, .org.uk, .net.uk, etc. The US doesn't have those. US companies use .com, .org, .net, etc. regardless that they're nominally not US-specific.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by icebraining on Sunday March 04, 2018 @04:15AM (#16513902)
The US does have .us - it was actually the first ccTLD - and a complex hierarchy under it, it's just not commonly used for historical reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.us

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @11:15AM (#16515190)
It's not commonly used because the hierarchy is weird. Originally the names had to be four deep, containing both the state and the locality, which is silly since all but the smallest operations span localities and even small companies often change locality. So they eventually allowed registrations directly at .us but there is still no .us equivalent to .org.uk.
Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @08:18AM (#16514601)
> The problem with allowing plaintiffs or prosecutors to play this game is that they can take the list of everything you've ever done, ignore everything that makes what they're trying to prove less likely and present only the list of things that make it more likely. If you look only at that evidence then each piece of it increases the probability that you believe what they want you to believe, regardless of whether it's actually true.

Isn't there a defence? I also don't believe the court would like to find out that the prosecutor lied.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @10:58AM (#16515120)
> Isn't there a defence?

There is, but it's a resource battle. Governments and large corporations can spend a hundred times more hours on something than regular individuals and small nonprofits. If they both had the same resources there might be a 90% chance the defendant wins, but create a large enough resource asymmetry and it flips the other way.

This is one of the main reasons for the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in criminal cases, but that doesn't apply to civil cases even when the plaintiff is 10,000 times the size of the defendant, and isn't enough in criminal cases where the defendant is relying on a criminally over-worked public defender and everything is greased to mass-produce guilty pleas and discourage trials.

> I also don't believe the court would like to find out that the prosecutor lied.

It isn't strictly lying, it's just not pointing out inconvenient facts.

Prosecutors can get into trouble for this when it's really damning, like not disclosing a witness who says it was somebody else, but that's separate from all the banality like the number of man hours they spent investigating you without finding anything before they could come up with what they're presenting.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @06:30PM (#16517465)
I see, thanks for the explanation.
Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by harshreality on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:59PM (#16512683)
> illegal where?

On the internet, where project gutenberg is located. The argument put forward, that you repeated, implies just as much that someone could be prosecuted in a Chinese court for publishing a harsh (to the point of being illegal in China) criticism of China named freexinjiang.com, at least if the site included a Chinese version. And that, since it refers specifically to a Chinese province/area, would have at least some nexus to China, whereas Project Gutenberg has zero connection to Germany.

Arguing the connection by language (the fact that German-language books of note exist to be digitized does not imply a connection to Germany the country) or Gutenberg's biography (what does the nationality of Gutenberg the historical person have to do with anything? Is shakespeare.com subject to uk laws?) is insanity.

> I really didn't know [.us isn't commonly used]

I didn't realize how this might not be intuitive to people in other countries, so...

The U.S. mostly invented / was the testbed for the internet. It's standard in the U.S., and for almost any English-language website that's not seeking to be tied to a specific country of origin, to use .com .net or .org. I get that people in countries where English isn't official or where they're targeting the country's population as visitors will prefer .cc tlds either to indicate that their site targets that country's residents, or targets people who speak that country's primary language, but .us is not at all the norm in the USA; .com .net and .org generally serve that purpose, and .us is a distant fourth [1].

But, supposing .us were the primary domain used by U.S. organizations, even if Project Gutenberg didn't use .org but instead used a generic TLD, it would still have zero to do with Germany.

[1] It's actually 6th, behind .xyz and .info, but those two probably have a higher percentage of spammy junk websites and email domains, so .us might be fourth in domains that aren't junk ecommerce advertising sites.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by Mindwipe on Sunday March 04, 2018 @05:06AM (#16514043)
> On the internet, where project gutenberg is located. The argument put forward, that you repeated, implies just as much that someone could be prosecuted in a Chinese court for publishing a harsh (to the point of being illegal in China) criticism of China named freexinjiang.com, at least if the site included a Chinese version. And that, since it refers specifically to a Chinese province/area, would have at least some nexus to China, whereas Project Gutenberg has zero connection to Germany.

You can be. A US court would be pretty reluctant to enforce it, but you can and always could.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:18PM (#16512752)
> On the internet

I still don't understand what that means exactly.

> whereas Project Gutenberg has zero connection to Germany.

I disagree.

> what does the nationality of Gutenberg the historical person have to do with anything? Is shakespeare.com subject to uk laws?

There's a lot inbetween of

zero connection with country X

and

subject to it's law.

So regarding shakesbear.com: No, not necessarily.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by sjwright on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:16PM (#16512892)
> There's a lot inbetween

No, there isn't. Or are you saying Austria could have a greater claim of jurisdiction over Tesla because of its name?

Germany has no more "ownership" over the German language than England has over English.

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by mcguire on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:52PM (#16513005)
Are you really asserting that

a) anything in the German language falls under the jurisdiction of the German government, and that

b) a relationship bearing on legal jurisdiction between two otherwise completely unrelated entities can be created by otherwise unrelated third parties?

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by slake on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:44PM (#16513305)
Point a is covered under GDPR. If you have German on your website their courts have jurisdiction. The language is so vague that they will have jurisdiction over all the world when it comes to PI privacy laws.
Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by icebraining on Sunday March 04, 2018 @04:08AM (#16513879)
If you have German on your website their courts have jurisdiction.

Nope:

"In order to determine whether such a controller or processor is offering goods or services to data subjects who are in the Union, it should be ascertained whether it is apparent that the controller or processor envisages offering services to data subjects in one or more Member States in the Union. (...) the mere accessibility of the controller’s, processor’s or an intermediary’s website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention" (emphasis mine)

As long as German is used in the country where PG is located - and it is - then it's not enough to show that they're targeting German citizens.

https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-23/

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by mcguire on Sunday March 04, 2018 @12:07AM (#16513352)
That's...a little disturbing.
Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @08:08AM (#16514572)
a) No

b) What do you mean exactly?

Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by mcguire on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:46PM (#16512987)
Ignored? Where are you seeing that?
Re:Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany by jhasse on Sunday March 04, 2018 @08:15AM (#16514593)
In the court order.